BA Security, Intelligence & Cyber...thoughts?

[catsharingmychair]

Does anyone have any thoughts/feedback on a BA in Security, Intelligence and Cyber? Just to qualify, it is not a computer science course - it is all about international governance, communication & diplomacy around terrorism/security with some Cyber modules also. It is only offered at undergraduate level in around 6 Unis, none of them RG.

The one she's most interested in is at Buckingham and is actually a two year intensive degree - with a very, very small campus. We visited informally last week.

She really wants to go to university for both the intellectual stimulation and the experience, but just isn't keen on continuing with traditional/purely academic subjects. She doesn't wish to continue with her A level subjects as a pure degree (History, Geography & Politics, AAA) however is interested in applied contemporary history & politics relating to international security. She doesn't see herself enjoying a pure History degree with mostly essays/exams. The BA in question uses different types of measurement e.g. coursework, exams but also interviewing techniques etc so it is much more practical.

She's keen to work in a field related to international security/terrorism prevention or potentially Detective work. (The graduate program/training for Detectives doesn't require a specific degree title first so she could take any subject). She's also explored and discounted Policing degrees/ Degree Apprenticeships and Law degrees/Degree Apprenticeships. She's obviously reviewed modules/degrees in International Relations & Criminology.

I'm happy whatever she chooses to apply for; she needs to study whatever she finds most interesting. However I do have a slight concern if she ends up applying one day for the Civil Service. Would it find a first degree in security, intelligence and cyber too specialized or limiting? Might it prefer to see a traditional degree first and intelligence studies as a Masters?

And when you look on LI at grads accepted onto the govt Fast Stream programs, many seem to have followed the 3 year, RG route, some with Masters. So going fully vocational, plus going down the 2 year intensive route - any ideas how this might be received?

Any thoughts most appreciated. Many thanks.

I work in an area that uses Cyber professionals and the course at Buckingham is a total waste of time if you want to use it to work in Cyber. Much better off doing a business management or MIS degree and then a non-tech Cyber management course as a masters.

Previous company I worked for used to target that course and others for recruitment (I'm in solution engineering). The reason we did that was programming courses were heavily targeted and we got better employees going to those courses, then teaching the right sort of person to code in house.
In terms of technology it is so rapidly changing and so broad now that people with a wide overall knowledge and interest in the sector are sought after - by consultancy firms as well as public sector employers.
If she knows that is industry sector she wants to apply to then it is a totally reasonable choice.
You could use LinkedIn to search up grads from that course and see what they are doing now? Although if they are working in policing or similar they may not be on there.

Or she could consider something like this

www.ncsc.gov.uk/cyberfirst/bursary-and-degree-apprenticeship

Am slightly fascinated by the two extremes in answer here. Sounds a fascinating course but I’ve never been convinced by the University of Buckingham. Isn’t there something a bit weird about it? (I lived near there in my 20s and have a vague memory.)

If I am reading it right she doesn't want to do cyber security.

We looked into these a couple of years ago . DS is now doing IR instead as there was just a feeling that list was broader (and the unis offering it were far away). I am locally quite close to Buckingham and would swerve it for lots of reasons.

Pretty sure Aberystwyth is at the forefront to this kind of degree and it was either Man Met or Salford that had it? Does Hull offer it? It has an excellent politics department. I know politics students are actively recruited by NGOs and government bodies etc from Hull and Aber.

To broaden her choice search also War Studies. Sounds very military but is more or less the same thing (one of the unis calls it Peace Studies...)

I was not very clear there. I meant the unis offering the security degrees were very far away and there was a greater range and choice in IR, many of which have modules in terrorism and security.

Honestly I think she’s better studying politics with international relations with what she wants to do.

Is AAA her actual A level results? If so, I'd say she should go to the best uni possible for a more general degree in politics/international relations etc and then specialise later. Some courses may have modules she can choose from Year 2.

A lot of companies and the Government will look at quality of university and degree first and the specifics of the course second (if at all).

I agree with your first thought that a more general degree, with something like this as a masters would be more mainstream attractive to employers.

An International relations degree might suit her better? Or politics politics/economics? You'd need to check the course content, as they can vary quite a bit, and some are likely to be considerably closer to her interest than others.

I went to school in Buckingham and quite frankly, it’s about as dull as it gets! I know Covid is causing problems everywhere but Buckingham has 20% overseas undergrads and 60% overseas post grads. It’s reported widely that this will cause financial problems for them. Anthony Seldon is leaving. It’s low mid division in the league tables. I would hate to spend two years studying intensively in Buckingham because a standard student life is largely absent. It’s handy for very little and doesn’t have a station.

I think looking at other universities would be better but without maths A level, high quality business and management courses might be limited. IR or something similar is ok though. Criminology is a bit meh for high status jobs when you are up against Oxbridge grads. Fast track civil service is very picky so going to the best RG is a better strategy and even then there’s no guarantee of anything. As dcs we know have found out. The Police won’t be a picky as the civil service fast track!

@My0My

I went to school in Buckingham and quite frankly, it’s about as dull as it gets! I know Covid is causing problems everywhere but Buckingham has 20% overseas undergrads and 60% overseas post grads. It’s reported widely that this will cause financial problems for them. Anthony Seldon is leaving. It’s low mid division in the league tables. I would hate to spend two years studying intensively in Buckingham because a standard student life is largely absent. It’s handy for very little and doesn’t have a station.

I think looking at other universities would be better but without maths A level, high quality business and management courses might be limited. IR or something similar is ok though. Criminology is a bit meh for high status jobs when you are up against Oxbridge grads. Fast track civil service is very picky so going to the best RG is a better strategy and even then there’s no guarantee of anything. As dcs we know have found out. The Police won’t be a picky as the civil service fast track!

Fast track isn’t particularly picky in my experience. My friends’ children have all managed to get onto the NCA / Economics stream etc in various intakes with everything from BCommerce degrees from obscure Indian universities to Open University degrees. I think they go with overall potential and so as long as she can impress in the selection process she should be fine.

That’s not been my experience. Oxbridge still very sought after!

Thanks so much for your replies. Really insightful thoughts here and I'll moot these with DD, thank-you:

Grumpy - interesting ref Business or MIS - thanks.
Quentin- really interesting to know consultancies will take non tech grads based on interest in the field. We looked for alumni of the Bucks courses on LI but couldn't see many - we'll keep trying- although I think discussions on here might lean us more to a RG and broader, towards IR. Thanks for the tip ref bursaries.
Piggy - ooh War (or Peace) studies - hadn't spotted these, thanks!
Divoc- yes she's getting those sorts of grades in essays/year 12 mock exams (which they did online) so with any luck she'll get near to this next year- however all could change between now and then obviously.
MyoMy- I agree-Buckingham is so pretty but it does feel very quaint, & touristy with almost a boarding school/sixth form campus feel..

Will feedback all your ideas to DD- we are going to see Royal Holloway and Kingston today and Bristol, Exeter, Aber and Cardiff at some point.. I know - any excuse to escape home during stay-cation season. Manchester Met & Hull could be really interesting too -thanks for these tips Piggy.

So great to have other families' thoughts and experiences!
x

Given her likely high grades it seems a waste. I am biased to Bristol (3 of my children went there and the twins just finished). My daughter rejected Durham (as did the twins although it is certainly as good and probably better than Bristol) and she firmed Bristol and Royal H. as a back up in case grades were not good enough. )She is lawyer in London). I know your daughter has discounted law for a career but whatever career it tends to be sensible to go for the hardest to get into university that you can.

As someone said above perhaps look at the linkedin profiles of people in the jobs she wants perhaps younger ones and see where they went to university.

Bear in mind with Buckingham that you'll have to subsidise the fees - the maximum fee loan is £11k for an accelerated degree which is less than they charge.

If she's not specifically looking for a cyber/computer job but more the field of intelligence/security/conflict and she is predicted 3 A's I would strongly recommend a broader Undergraduate degree at a much better university, with a language included (French or Arabic being two desirable and broad languages of interest for many agencies). IR, PolSci, War/Conflict Studies etc as the subject.

An MA or MSc from a very good institution (Science Po, Soas etc.) in whichever more specialised area she's interested in after 3 or 4 years of undergraduate would be better, and is pretty much required from many places.

Internships/volunteering unfortunately still very useful. Some are even part time or by distance during studies. If looking at overseas conflict/intelligence then actual field experience is very helpful. This is not so relevant if you want to join local police, for example.

Hard to do a language if you are not doing the A level so conversation level at best! Science Po is a Grand Ecole and, as such, the elite go there. Again, without French, not easy!

It’s always worth seeing if the courses do a year abroad. Bristol do offer French as part of undergrads being able to access French universities without the A level for a year abroad. DDs boyfriend at the time did go to. Grand Ecole via Erasmus. High pass at gcse French required though and a huge amount of work to get up to speed for a French top flight university. Australia and USA might be easier to access. Worth a look anyway.

If War Studies is of interest then King's London is the top place (standard offer is AAA).

Not necessarily. Many top European universities offer courses in English now, and I was at university with lots of students who started a language in first year. It's very common with Arabic.

They are also often much cheaper for postgraduate degrees than UK or US institutions. Agree with King's for War Studies.

DD looked at Exeter's Flexible Combined Honours programme for IR and French with Arabic ab initio, but was put off the latter part by their insistence on students spending the whole of the year abroad in a country related to the ab initio language, rather than dividing it between the two. (This was a couple of years ago).

DDs boyfriend spent the whole year at the grande Ecole. Taught in French. Took their exams. He was ab initio French. But don’t be fooled, to get to this level without an A level in any language is tough. Most ab initio is for language students who have a proven MFL track record at A level. But if you are motivated and good at language acquisition you can do it. The university here wouldn’t have let him go unless he was considered good enough in French.

Yes, universities like Maastricht teach in English but the last time I looked, it’s fairly lowly ranked in global terms. DD says everyone goes for the booze culture.

DS’ experience is th at the public sector makes every effort to be institution blind. He had the “right degree“ from the “right University”, and indeed had been to the “right school”. He was applying in quite a technical area so had an advantage on competency tests, but no more than that. I am with Grumpy, and am wondering what MyOMy’s experience is. Perhaps a generation ago.

As for languages, even a generation ago the Civil Service was not looking for languages, simply a willingness to pick them up as and when needed.(Aptitude used to be tested via an obscure Middle Eastern language.) I agree though that Arabists are always in short supply, whether in the Foreign Office or their friends, journalism or whatever. (Oh FWIW Science Po may be a Grande Ecole but there are a hundred or more Grande Ecoles in France. It a name for a parallel higher education system.)

I agree with Kings and War Studies.

There used to be a poster here (Bubblesbuddy) who had a real downer on Buckingham, though it as never clear why. MyOMy seems to follow in this MN tradition. It’s all about fit. Buckingham really suits some. Heads down, condensed degrees, plenty of internationals, good pastoral care on a Junior Ivy sort of campus. I have heard some really good things, but like Bristol or anywhere else, it’s what suits.

Just to add another one to the mix for IR, St Andrews has also a strong reputation for the subject

www.st-andrews.ac.uk/subjects/international-relations/international-relations-ma/#50271

If IR, LSE has to be considered. International contacts, if nothing else.

The Grandes Ecoles only have about 5% of the student population in France as they are much smaller. Not just an equivalent HE system as by necessity and tradition much more selective as well as better funded. Sciences Po will be less competitive though than some of the other categories of GE, especially when part of an exchange system.