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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Geography at Oxford

53 replies

QuestionMarkNow · 20/07/2020 09:38

Ds has a change of mind regarding his A-levels subjects. But is also Limited to what he can do to constrains with school.

Atm he has further maths, history and physics.
He can do maths, geography and physics. But not further maths.

Does anyone know if one set of options is better to get a place to study geography at Oxford (his aim)? What he has found so far says he needs geography AND further maths which he can’t do....

OP posts:
QuestionMarkNow · 23/07/2020 07:34

@My0My, I’ll direct him towards that too.

The lockdown has allowed him to spend more time looking at what choices there are at Uni. And this feeds nicely into that.

OP posts:
SunnySummerDays · 23/07/2020 07:40

My ds opted to study earth science rather than geography as advised geography too broad a subject to make a career in that field. He’s second year now. Was hoping he could have got work experience this summer but the virus messed it up! He loves his course!

Kidneybingo · 23/07/2020 07:41

He absolutely does not need FM for any competitive university if applying for Geography, however he will struggle without Geography A level. Even Maths is not necessary, but is useful. Geography, Maths, Physics is a good combination. As is Geography, Biology, Chemistry, for a BSc.

JMG1234 · 23/07/2020 07:51

I studied Geography at Durham. I did take A level maths but I can't remember any of my fellow geographers that had taken A level maths. The maths element in our geography degree was straight-forward stats type work that anyone who'd done GCSE maths would find easy.

My son is also looking to study geography at Uni. When we went into school to discuss options, the only degree that the careers adviser flagged as needing maths was Economics. My husband studied Economics at Durham, without A level maths, and said he found it a struggle.

So, long way of saying that maths, nor further maths, are especially useful for geography degrees from my experience once you get to university. A level geography would be helpful as it shows an interest in your subject and I'm guessing you'd find it easier to write a personal statement.

I don't know specifically about Oxbridge applications, they may look for different things and clearly engineering requires a different set of A levels again...

JMG1234 · 23/07/2020 07:53

Sorry, I should clarify that the only degree that my son was considering that needed maths was economics. Clearly, a maths degree would reunited maths...doh!

ClashCityRocker · 23/07/2020 08:07

Looking at the statistics posted above, out of the successful 288 it would seem that 287 had a geography A level and 273 did not have further maths as an a level.

I wonder how many had no maths at all?

Regardless, it seems clear that the option set with geography would be the better choice.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/07/2020 08:20

My guess is that FM is only really showing up among oxford geographers because it's a common 4th subject if you're doing 3 including maths and physics, not because it's in any way necessary.

FWIW, I know someone who did geography at Cambridge with maths, physics and geography A levels, she did eng lit to AS and had been told they didn't mind whether she dropped that or geography.

My0My · 23/07/2020 08:20

Maths A level will never ever do an applicant for geography any harm. It’s a great A level for BSc Geography and some courses have more “scientific” options than others. In particular elements of Environmental Science. Maths can keep other options open such as Environmental Science (Not available are every top ranked university) and, with Physics, Civil Engineering.

If he wants to do the combination of subjects to keep his options open, he should go to a school that offers FM but only if he’s definitely going to get the highest grades (A or A*) in it in my view. Otherwise it’s not worth the upheaval.

Cranmer · 23/07/2020 08:44

DC1 did Maths, Physics and Geography A levels and is studying a Geography related degree.

DC2 did Maths, Politics and Geography and is studying BA Geography at a top university. DC2 started Y12 studying FM but dropped it after 6 weeks and did a geo-politics related EPQ instead. This really helped with the personal statement and was more beneficial than FM.

Xenia · 23/07/2020 09:16

It sounds like this boy is really good at maths. My twins' school did warn all those pushy parents wanting their sons to do maths all the time that you are either very good at it (lots of A stars in maths) or else even if an A at GCSE you might well get C or D in it they had found in the past so they were very clear that maths is either a brilliant dead cert if you are good at it but if you are not sure something else could be less risky. however I only paste that for other parents, not here as it sounds like this boy is very good at maths.

I suspect university geography websites say you do not need geography just as a sop and to help those whose schools were unable to offer it but it would be very rare not to have taken geography A level. My 2 children who read for Geography BSc mostly had friends on the course who had done geography A level.

titchy · 23/07/2020 09:25

Those stats don't support him doing FM at all! Maybe he should spend some time thinking a little wider around how to interpret statistics. He's making a pretty basic error of assuming correlation equals causation - ie those with FM got offers because of the FM. Even without knowing what else they did or what their PS were like, the stats don't support his assumption - the majority of kids with offers don't have FM! That speaks volumes.

rbe78 · 23/07/2020 09:38

I took physical geography at uni, and work in HE - have taught geography at uni.

No geography course that I know of will stipulate even maths as an entry requirement, let alone further maths. If your son wants to read geography, he should definitely take it as an A Level. Geography, Physics, Maths and History would be the combo I would recommend.

If he can only take three, I would probably say Geography, Physics and History. That will leave him open to studying history if he changes his mind. Physics will give him more than enough grounding in maths to study geography, and a lot of the concepts you learn in Physics are important in understanding some parts of Physical Geog - more so than theoretical maths.

One thing I would say is that from his potential A Level choices, he seems very science/maths orientated. He should bear in mind that at Oxford you have to study Geography as a whole rather than specialising in Human/Physical Geography. Human Geography at university level is very different to that at school level - more like sociology really. If that's not his bag, he may be better off looking at course elsewhere (most unis other than Oxford) where he can choose to drop Human Geography modules after his first year.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/07/2020 10:32

I don't know if Cambridge allows one side or the other to be dropped, but the person I know who went there ended up very much on the physical geog side. I've read one of her research papers - loads of stats, but not tricksy stuff.

She must have got her info on cambridge (or at least, he college) being relaxed about taking geography A level well before she applied - emailing some admissions tutors before deciding on A level choices never does any harm. My DD did that in yr 11 (different subject) and got some very helpful responses.

My0My · 23/07/2020 14:22

Rbe78: I’m curious as to why you think taking history A level is a good shout, with a view to studying history, but then say he seems maths/science oriented? That just doesn’t make sense.

I would still suggest a science degree would be better- if he really loves sciences and maths the most. I would wonder - why Geography? Where do his interests genuinely lie? On the science side, the A levels I suggested are better than adding in history.

My0My · 23/07/2020 14:25

I would never advise anyone to do the “wrong” A levels. One outlier doesn’t help all applicants. If universities say they want Geography A level to do a Geography degree I would assume they mean it.

Brashopper · 23/07/2020 14:33

If his Maths teacher thinks he’ll be bored with single Maths and he’s a great independent learner, why doesn’t he take Geography at school and teach himself F Maths?

There is plenty of online support because not all schools teach F Maths anyway, and presumably his single Maths teachers can help him a bit in lessons if they also teach F Maths.

4amWitchingHour · 23/07/2020 14:46

I find this a weird question all round. There is zero need for any sort of maths A level to study geography as an undergraduate, and I'd say even more so at Oxford which is a much more arts and social focussed course than many others universities, and why would he not get his choices at A level?? That sounds like a shit sixth form if he can't study what he wants.

10km · 23/07/2020 14:47

OP - I think he needs to be clear as to why he wants to study geog. For instance, is he more of a human geographer (in which case A-levels in Economics, Sociology, Hidtory, Politics will be most relevant)? Or is he more if a physical geographer (in which case sciences or geology would be more useful A-levels)?

Geography is a very broad discipline. If he’s more physical geog orientated, I would suggest Bristol (BSc). If he’s more human geog, definitely LSE. Very different courses.

You need to go in individual uni websites. It will clearly state what they need!

Obviously, nearly every geography applicant will have studied the subject at A-level. How could you rock up at Oxford and display your burning passion for the subject, if you didn’t even take it at A-level?

I don’t think maths is necessary. No course states this. Yes there is statistical analysis in geography, but most will manage this without A-level maths.

Phphion · 23/07/2020 16:07

I wonder how many had no maths at all?

Most common A levels in addition to geography in the 2013-2017 data:

Mathematics Taken by 45% of applicants (Total 459, Shortlisted 392, Offered 151)
Biology 29% (300, 229, 92)
Economics / Economics and Business 26% (266, 194, 64)
English Literature / Language 24% (244, 171, 65)
History 22% (222, 152, 60)
Chemistry 15% (151, 127, 52)
Physics 9% (92, 76, 32)
French 8% (80, 70, 26)
Religious Studies 6% (63, 40, 16)
Psychology 6% (61, 33, 10)
Government & Politics 5% (51, 33, 11)
Art (Fine / & Design) 5% (49, 29, 6)
Spanish 5% (48, 37, 11)
German 2% (23, 20, 10)
Geology 2% (19, 12, 6)
Business Studies (not Econ & Bus) 2% (17, 4, 1)
Classics Latin 1% (10, 9, 1)
Sociology 1% (10, 5, 2)

As @titchy says, while it is a statistical fact that people who did FM A level were more likely to receive an offer, we cannot conclude that it is doing FM in and of itself that caused them to receive an offer and hence that it is an advantage.

Otherwise, we would also conclude that doing German A level confers an advantage, but doing French A level does not and doing Spanish A level is positively disadvantageous. Yet even just thinking logically, there is no reason why the Oxford geography department should especially be looking for people who can speak German.

There are lots of other things that might account for the higher proportion of people with FM who were accepted, including that they were more likely to have taken 4+ A levels (and AS levels at the time).

You also have to look at combinations of subjects. The numbers are far, far, far too small to draw statistically significant conclusions, but a quick model suggests that there is almost no additive value in doing FM if you are doing physics (i.e. the proportions with [Geo, Phys, M] and [Geo, Phys, M, FM] who get offers are almost identical), but there is if you aren't doing physics. But again, we are talking about tiny numbers of people with lots of other things that may have influenced their chance of getting an offer.

He needs to think what he really want to study. He can't expect to busk his way into studying geography (or engineering, history, business, etc., etc.) at Oxford on a promise that he is really clever. Realistically, if he wants to study geography at Oxford, he can do almost any A level subject and his chances of receiving an offer will still depend more on his grades, his interview, his personal statement, etc. There is no magic bullet. Except geography A level. He really should do that.

(the one outlier in the data really is an outlier. The other five applicants without A level geography were: 1) actually does have geography A level listed as a prior qualification; 2) an international student who possibly could not take geography; 3) and 4) the same person who retook and reapplied but was shortlisted on first application but not on second, had geology A level and geography AS level, 5) had geography AS level, not shortlisted)

HeyBells · 23/07/2020 22:16

I agree about thinking whether his preference is more to human or physical geography. If he is science, he could look at Cambridge Natural Sciences with a view to specialising in Earth Sciences, but would probably be better off with FM which cuts out geography.

NewModelArmyMayhem18 · 24/07/2020 00:37

I thought Cambridge was the place to do Geography?

ErrolTheDragon · 24/07/2020 10:47

@NewModelArmyMayhem18

I thought Cambridge was the place to do Geography?
FWIW QS ranks them Oxford, LSE, Cambridge, UCL, Durham - all in the top 10 globally. I'm sure all of those - and others - are all very good places to do it.
NewModelArmyMayhem18 · 24/07/2020 11:20

@ErrolTheDragon - clearly out of date then.

My0My · 24/07/2020 19:03

45% offer Maths as an A level when applying to do Geography at Oxford. So posters who think it’s not a great idea are possibly wrong. This is because Maths keeps so many doors open! It’s a great combination with a Science. Any course that includes environmental modules is useful these days and Maths helps with that.

My0My · 24/07/2020 19:12

Looking at the Oxford course it isn’t arts or social focused if you don’t want it to be. For post grads, courses are very much Geography and the Environment and the Department is called exactly this. For this reason an undergrad can offer arts and/or science A levels but a scientist would find plenty of modules of interest.

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