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Higher education

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3 out of 4 UK universities have slipped in global rankings

62 replies

HannahStern · 10/06/2020 22:51

Almost three quarters of British universities have slipped in a global ranking published today.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/uk-universities-including-oxford-marked-down-in-global-rankings-jrctm8qjq

UK universities are heavily dependent on the recruitment of international students for survival and there has been an almost complete collapse in numbers. We face some extremely tough years ahead.

OP posts:
Mominatrix · 12/06/2020 18:55

This is not really Brexit related, as some people would like to think. It was inevitable with the rise of China and the wish of the Party for future dominance, as well as countries which are rapidly growing economically pouring money into their higher learning establishments. It would have happened anyways. It is not like all of the very bright Chinese/Hong Kong/Indian/other SE Asian students are now choosing other European establishments over British ones.

MedSchoolRat · 12/06/2020 19:02

The degrees could be taken over by other universities

I can't imagine any Uni doing this... they won't have facilities or budgets to make it possible in 2020. The unis in trouble will go bankrupt this year. Many are research high profile or they wouldn't be able to market themselves so successfully to foreign students. There is no phasing out safety net period.

the top 10 UK Unis with most Chinese students so probably will be in greatest financial crisis in 2020: Manchester, Liverpool, UEA, UCL, Leicester, Newcastle, Southampton, Sheffield, Birmingham, Nottingham.

Are these the Unis everyone is happy to be culled? Do you agree that these institutions are unlikely to produce critical thinkers?

Damn, I work for one of them & DD is supposed to attend another. :(

Mominatrix · 12/06/2020 19:34

This makes interesting reading if you expand international students beyond just China. Of note, the top 5 international countries of origin for foreign student to the UK are are Asian, not European and within the top 10 university destinations are Oxford and Cambridge, as well as UCL and Kings.

lljkk · 12/06/2020 19:44

Another list... of most foreign students (2019)
University College London: 12,742
The University of Manchester: 10,880
The University of Edinburgh: 8,138
Coventry University: 7,658
The University of Sheffield: 7,486
King’s College London: 7,054
The University of Liverpool: 6,919
University of the Arts, London: 6,689
The University of Leeds: 6,566
The University of Birmingham: 6,498
The University of Warwick: 6,440
Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine: 6,277
University of Nottingham: 5,896
London School of Economics and Political Science: 5,776
The University of Glasgow: 5,510

I don't think anyone wants them to close.

HannahStern · 12/06/2020 20:21

It looks like British universities are facing a decade of decline. US universities are also suffering to some degree but Australian and European universities have managed to hold their own to a greater extent.

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My0My · 12/06/2020 20:47

Universities UK has already proposed consolidation and mergers with HE and FE providers. Not immediately but they really are going to have to plan for this. They simply won’t get a bail out to cover all the projected losses.

They will also need to look at the overall provision of courses. Some sectors have already seen falling student numbers and reduced supply of courses: MFL for example. By offering fewer but higher quality courses you, hopefully, keep student numbers up. If required a certain amount of horse trading but who can afford to keep all these half empty courses going?

There is no need for some qualifications to be degree level either. I totally reject the notion that this works against some minority people who, if BLM means anything at all, will now go to the better universities. Why should some people be pushed towards vocational degrees because of class or race? Surely we now disagree with that?

CatandtheFiddle · 12/06/2020 22:54

Lecturers are literally and openly told they need to award certain percentages of the cohort with firsts, and that percentage is always increasing

I've worked in some of the best universities in 3 countries since 1985, and I've never been "told to award award certain percentages of the cohort with firsts" - neither literally nor openly, nor metaphorically and covertly.

NoHardSell · 13/06/2020 04:40

@CatandtheFiddle

Lecturers are literally and openly told they need to award certain percentages of the cohort with firsts, and that percentage is always increasing

I've worked in some of the best universities in 3 countries since 1985, and I've never been "told to award award certain percentages of the cohort with firsts" - neither literally nor openly, nor metaphorically and covertly.

I can't tell you the number of lecturers I know who have told me this. A lot. At different universities all over the UK. It's a lot worse at the lower ranking universities, which might be why you haven't heard it personally. It's totally blatant as it is said openly with no attempt whatsoever to hide it. I'm afraid you must be in a small bubble, isolated from wider patterns of completely normalised behaviour. The article I linked to has a few examples but it's well known in the sector.
mathanxiety · 13/06/2020 05:10

Universities most certainly are a business.
Read and weep.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UK_universities_by_endowment
Figures shown in £ millions because UK university endowments are in millions.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_the_United_States_by_endowment
"This following is a list of U.S. institutions of higher education with endowments greater than one billion dollars"

bushhbb · 13/06/2020 05:31

It's a lot worse at the lower ranking universities, which might be why you haven't heard it personally

I can believe that, look at the way their recruitment process works. There was the discussion about them giving out unconditional offers to every Tom Dick and Harry last year

They wouldn't survive if they used the same practices as to universities, and why pp hasn't heard of it

MoltenLasagne · 13/06/2020 05:33

US Universities have massive endowments because there are huge benefits to "legacy" students including lower grade requirements and preferential treatment in a matched grade situation. It's definitely not something that should be imported here.

The parents who already spend a fortune from prep school onwards to get their kids the best shot at Oxbridge would just see it as a logical investment to donate more.

mathanxiety · 13/06/2020 06:24

Interest in getting young Johnnie into a specific university doesn't account for the fact that we are talking about billions of dollars in endowments. Most small donors know that their $100 per year won't cut it when it's time for their offspring to apply for university, but they send that cheque anyway and it all adds up. Three of my DCs so far have managed to go through university almost debt free thanks to need blind admissions, made possible by donations and stewardship of the endowments.

American universities have massive endowments because they are not shy of asking for money. I get begging letters at least twice a year and phone calls during phone bank season from all three of the universities, two private and one public, from which my DCs have graduated. My DCs get the same, and the phones are manned by students doing a very hard sell.

My own Irish alma mater tracked me down a few years ago with the donation basket outstretched. In Ireland admissions are done by the Central Admissions Office - your exam grades go into the computer along with your indexed list of ten degree courses, and out comes your allocated course, with your destination determined not just by your results but by the results of everyone else applying for a place on your preferred courses. It's anonymous, completely impersonal, fair at point of entry, a little like a rock tumbler. The appeal when it comes to donations is that you will be participating in sponsoring a student who might not otherwise be able to attend. There is no hope whatsoever of an adjustment to the algorithms of the CAO in your child's favour. Big business donors have given a lot of money to build facilities for various different faculties. Quite honestly, I wouldn't begrudge a donor's children if that donor supplied a library.

American private elementary and high schools do a massive amount of fundraising too because they do not receive any federal or state funding. The vast majority of the work of fundraising for private schools is done incredibly professionally by parent volunteers.

NoHardSell · 13/06/2020 07:10

As you say, they don't get the federal/state funding. It's a totally different low tax-high donation society. No NHS but you can set up a begging site for funds to pay your medical bills. A bit like the Victorian system we used to have where the rich get to feel good about making donations to deserving causes. I would prefer a higher tax society personally. We are trying to go back towards their system I think

sendsummer · 13/06/2020 14:05

What is most likely to cause UK universities down global rankings is funding shortage for research. That in part will be caused by the present effect of stock markets on funders’ investments

My0My · 13/06/2020 14:12

It isn’t just the stock market. Research is funded by companies, by Quangos and anyone or any body interested in academic research. It certainly isn’t all funded by wealthy individuals.

sendsummer · 13/06/2020 15:35

This is nothing to do with private donors. The UK universities depends on big charitable funders and these charities have their assets invested. Government research grants contribute relatively little to UK university research. EU funding has also been removed now.

Kazzyhoward · 13/06/2020 15:39

If there is excess capacity then universities will have to reduce in size and/or number.

More likely they'll reduce entry requirements - they NEED the numbers to balance the books, so we risk a dumbing down of our Unis.

I think the biggest risk is to the ex-Polys as weaker students will find it easier to get into RG unis. Can't see there ever be a shortage of applicants for Oxbridge, Durham, or LSE!

sendsummer · 13/06/2020 15:39

And yes the alternative are focussing on commercial collaborations at least for STEM projects. That influence selection of research areas and, potentially, reported results.

My0My · 13/06/2020 16:02

There is a whole raft of universities that were never ex polys. Their students could trade up to the ex polys which was my argument in the first place. Some of our worst performing universities are not ex polys. They are former HE, teacher training colleges etc. Post 92 I think?

My0My · 13/06/2020 16:07

This is the source of research income that I could find from UK Universities data. It’s a bit out of date but the government was funding 2/3 of research.

3 out of 4 UK universities have slipped in global rankings
sendsummer · 13/06/2020 18:17

This gives a more recent metric for sources of research grant income for a university that will be more successful than most at securing public sector research funding
researchsupport.admin.ox.ac.uk/information/income
And this link (showing total university income) from an equally successful university that has the added advantage of being STEM specialised.

www.imperial.ac.uk/finance/annual-report/financial-review/income/

My0My · 13/06/2020 18:53

What about Suffolk, Bedfordshire or Bucks New? What are the research funds at these and where do they come from? Oxford and Imperial are still world class. There are many that are not so some need to federate or merge.

titchy · 13/06/2020 19:00

Sendsummer when Imperial talks about research grants and contract income the majority of that comes from the research councils, not private companies.

This thread though was about the drop in UK universities in the international league tables - the 'weaker' universities mentioned in this thread aren't in those league tables at all. It's the RGs and pre-92s that have declined, not the ex polys or ex colleges.

sendsummer · 13/06/2020 19:38

titchy
Charities for example the Wellcome trust or CRUK and industry contribute a substantial part of non QA biomedical STEM research funding.

Also note the following from that Imperial link.
The source of research funding is important for financial sustainability, with many funders not covering the full cost of research projects. Industry funders typically contribute the most and research grants and contracts income from this source has grown 24% in the past five years in line with our strategy.

The relevance of research funding is as I stated above.
The international league tables heavily depend on research quality. This in turn attracts international students. Research quality depends on funding. Charitable funding bodies depend on how their investments are doing to generate income for grants. Government research funding will also be depleted during the current economic situation apart from areas.