Medicine 2021

[Millylovespuddles]

Hi all
It looks like there’s no medicine 2021 entry thread yet, so it might be an idea to get the ball rolling.
My DD is getting stuck into her A level course, doing well so far, but I’m guessing we parents could do with some mutual support and advice from parents who’ve been here before.

Also some very helpful and kind offers from experienced mums and teachers here - perhaps put the bickering aside and allow those who want to discuss and support to actually do so? And now I’m leaving .....

DD is keen to apply for Sept 2021 entry and has good GCSEs, 7 days of hospital work experience and more sorted for this summer, hours of voluntary work and represents her country in a sport. She has good social skills and on paper she's a fantastic candidate!

I think she's on track to be predicted minimum of AAA, so as far as I can see her application will mostly come down to her UCAT score. She wants to do some open days this June/July which I agree we need to do. However, as we won't have her UCAT score then I'm worried she'll visit somewhere, fall in love with it and then not be in with a chance of getting a place because her UCAT won't be high enough, eg Bristol.

Should I discourage visits to some places until September or allow her to go where she wants in the summer and then deal with potential disappointments if they're not feasible options once UCAT score is in?

@Card1gan do you have any reason to think that the UCAT will go badly? Of course it is great to have your eyes open, but maybe she should try a past paper to see what her starting point is. I think UCKCAT consortium had a free app which she could try doing 10 mins a day to see whether it is something she likes. Don't worry too much about AR at this stage - there is a definite knack to seeing the patterns and algorithms to go through if it does not jump out at you.

Clearly no point visiting somewhere if you already know it is unattainable.

@Monkey2001 I may be doing her a disservice and she may do very well in the UCAT test. However, I don't think her brain works quite that way so I'm not sure she'll do brilliantly.

She asked for a practice book for Christmas and has had a quick look at it and has said that they're difficult, however she hasn't dedicated any time to improving at the moment. She wants to subscribe to Medify (is that the name of it?) to practice once her summer AS exams are over and then probably take the test towards the end of the school holidays.

Cardiff is on her list as she's Welsh speaking so gets an extra tick in that box and they currently don't look at UCAT scores. However, they are likely to have to use something more than GCSE grades for 2021 entry because of the difficulty differentiating between candidates who had all 9/8/A* (this info is from the open day in Sept 2019).

@Card1gan .... visit a range in June this year - traditional, integrated and PBL style courses. Clarified much for DS in terms of type of teaching he preferred if nothing else! Get Medify to practice for UCAT but most students wouldn’t worry about this until much nearer the summer. It’s a much more realistic way to practice - time constraints being one of the biggest issues with this exam. Also.... visit yes, but many medical schools also have good online information, videos and tours. Some also live stream their open day talks. It can be expensive and time consuming to visit a large number but we found visiting a reasonable ‘range’ of different Schools have us a good idea about where preferences might lie.

Live streaming of open day talks.... now that would be great for us! We have visited a few of the Scottish unis over half-term, but feasibly won’t manage many more.

Thanks @Gizmo12345 for your advice. DD says she’s happy to go wherever will have her excluding London (too expensive, Scotland (too far) and Keele (the campus is too rural!). Lots to consider before October 15th.

We visited all the ones DS applied to before he applied, but in some ways it was easier for us as he decided to drop Biology so that ruled nearly half of them out and he knew he wanted as traditional as possible and then we saw the drop in places available for RUK students in Scotland and were only left with a few he was interested in!

I think it is a really good idea to visit the ones you apply to if you can, to get the feel of the place and pick up information from talking to staff and students. It is expensive and time consuming, but we were able to combine some, eg we did Leeds and Sheffield in one day, staying the night before in Leeds student accommodation through Universityrooms.com. DS really liked Edinburgh on paper but did not like the med school at all when we visited, although he loved the city. He was surprised to find that he liked Leicester much better than Edinburgh.

Card1gan - if your school is willing to predict 3 x A, Exeter is another one which uses UKCAT in a funny way; they put applicants in tiers based on their A level predictions, this year all 3xA applicants got interviews, then the people with A+ 2xA* were ranked by UKCAT and the highest invited for interview.

Another nice thing about Exeter this year is that all applicants got the results of their interviews 2 weeks after the interview (bit longer for ones just before Christmas). People with 7/7 "yes"s got offers, people with 4/7 or less were rejected, people in the middle were put on hold but knew their scores. UCAT was used again to decide which of the marginal ones got offers once interviews were completed.

A friend's daughter there has loved the course, currently on her elective in Madagascar.

GANFYD just to say in response to the last comment directed by you to me: the Oxford statistics were utterly coherent and you struggled with those. So I think your problem may be with clarity and the obvious, and you obfuscate, which is not helpful.

I do concede that your encyclopedic knowledge of UCAT statistics etc may help those with weaker grades who are on the cusp of securing/ not securing a place at med school but you should probably concede that you're a poor source of info at the BMAT end, for those with very strong grades. So far on your MN contributions I haven't seen any value that you've added in that area and a fair number of fairly rookie errors. There's no need for anyone to be all knowledgeable; far more use for those who know about a particular sector to stick to that but not stray further.

@goodbyestranger
far more use for those who know about a particular sector to stick to that but not stray further.

So you will be leaving the thread then?

Anyone with any experience which adds value is welcome on the thread GANFYD, even if its niche, as yours and mine both are.

Less puerility would also be welcome.

Just thinking @Card1gan. If your DD is anxious about UKCAT, it would be good if she did it early enough to do the BMAT on 5th September if she is not happy with her results (deadline for entry is 9/8). Unless she wants to apply to Oxford it is much better if she knows her scores before she applies. As @Gizmo12345 told us, all these tests may go well or can be disappointing on the day, but if you have all your results before you apply, you know exactly where your strengths and weaknesses lie.

Once you register for UKCAT you can change your date as many times as you like without a charge as long as you give 24 hours notice.

I don’t know what DDs predicted grades would be, but I guess they’ll be based on her AS results (we’re in Wales). Does anyone know if AS results are still accessed by universities? It could work for or against Welsh students if they are shared now that only Welsh students sit formal AS exams (worth 40% of final A-level grade).

She would love Exeter @monkey2001 but it would be a wasted application without the super high predicted grades. She’s actually been there 3 times since September with her sports so knows how good their facilities are.

Sitting BMAT is an option but as she’s not wanting to go to London it doesn’t open up that many options (I may be incorrect and am happy to be corrected). Leeds is one that she’d consider that’s BMAT but I don’t think she looked at it further once she realised it was BMAT. Hmmm, may be worth considering - thanks for the top tip!

@Card1gan

AS levels would need to be declared on UCAS, so would be available to med schools.

There are very few places that still take them into consideration. Leeds is one of them and will actually take the best out of GCSE or AS level score for their academic component.

Otherwise, it would be down to whether your DD sits 4 AS levels or not. QUB will take the 4th AS in lieu of an A* (ie offer drops from AstarAA to AAA plus a at AS level). It would help towards an application at Manchester via their holistic route (most applicants are assessed with a cut off of top 1/3 UCAT for an interview but around 500 interviews are offered using an holistic assessment of all elements of an application). A 4th AS would also give UCAS points for Barts, but you have said London is a nope.

Sadly, this is once again a case of med schools catering to the many and not the few and Welsh and NI applicants tend to lose out as they are on the old letter grading system for GCSE (and as already discussed, there are fewer Astars than 8s and 9s) and do not get benefit for good AS levels.
Cardiff compensated for this last year by considering only a 9 was equal to an Astar, but they switched it to both 8s and 9s this year and the result was a bit of an issue with their admissions as even those with full scores were not getting interviews. They may go back this year or change things up completely. QUB are moving to only 9s being an equivalent to an Astar for 2021 entry so "good" GCSEs in letter terms would stand her in better stead here than numerical ones, as there will likely be fewer 9s than Astars!

Non London BMAT unis are Leeds, Lancaster, BSMS, and Oxbridge so a fairly limited number. As ever, Monkey gives very good advice to sit UCAT early enough to keep options open, as if things do not turn out as hoped on the day, the BMAT is still an option. Although with good GCSEs, there are still likely to be lots of options with a UCAT over about 610

Just because you did not understand any further interpretation of the stats doesn't make them wrong!
The discussion of this ‘niche’ subject of Oxford admissions statistics is an illustration of a pitfall for medical professionals when rote learning outweighs scientific training. Superficial knowledge creates an illusion of expertise and with it misplaced overconfidence (Kahneman type effect) and condescension. Obfuscation when interpreting even very simple data is at best is not helpful for communication but should be particularly avoided if there are gaps in basic concepts (such as what a mean represents). .

@sendsummer

So now are you going to explain how my interpretation of the data was, in your opinion, wrong?

Happy for you to send it as a DM

Morning everyone!

I am wondering whether those knowledgeable in these things would talk to me about pros and cons for Oxford vs Cambridge. DS has spent a fair bit of time at Cambridge due to their outreach schemes but has also visited Oxford and based on a comment from one Cambridge student thinks Oxford may be 'livelier'.
As he will hopefully not entirely base his decision on which to apply for on the nightlife wondered if you could take a look at my list of thoughts so far? Thank you 😊

Oxford
Pros
Take GCSEs into account (he has 9 9s, an 8 and a 7)
Cons
Need to sit later BMAT so won't know scores for any of the unis before applying (also interested in Imperial and UCL)

Cambridge
Pros
Seems quite compact - halls to lectures etc all quite close and Addenbrookes nearby
Could sit earlier BMAT
Cons
Doesn't take GCSEs into account

This is maybe a clunky way of doing it - I'd also be interested in people's views in eg where they send the students for placements- I think that can be quite far flung? Oxford uses Reading and Swindon I think?

Thanks everyone who's taken the time to reply on this thread, it's so helpful.

GANFYD I had given enough pointers in my previous posts for some self directed learning.
This is offpiste to thread but to repeat.
Firstly don’t use pseudo statistics for a simple graphical representation of data just to appear knowledgeable and point score. You just demonstrated that somebody with no scientific background had a better instinctive understanding than you did. Students capable of an Oxbridge application will also know that a mean of 10.8 does not mean that they need 11+ to get an offer so I don’t think you need to feel responsible for communicating that. Especially as your explanation might confound rather than help.
To repeat there is no misrepresentation by graphical software. As you quite rightly observed the mode is 10 Astar equivalents.
Excluding those from offers, most offers will go to students with a higher (ie 11+) rather than lower numbers (ie

Pumpkintopf my main con for Cambridge is the restriction in attachments for the clinical years (many shared with UEA students) after students no longer had the opportunity to move to London.

Otherwise

Yes, the discussion of the Oxford statistics to which I linked was decidedly revealing. I'm very mildly interested (please note the very mild bit) in what drives the obfuscation.

Pumpkintopf your DS's GCSEs are a perfect profile for an Oxford application. I doubt there's much in it between Oxford and Cambridge in terms of the course which would sway the decision between the two so things like liveliness and nightlife are perfectly valid. My DC certainly rated those as factors :)

Oxford students are on the whole overwhelmingly Oxford based. They go out for relatively short stints in the later years to Reading, Swindon, Northampton etc but are able to come back to Oxford for several nights a week and accommodation in the out of Oxford hospitals is provided free, so there's no impact on their houses in Oxford. DS did the vast majority of his clinical training at the JR.

I'm not convinced that doing the later BMAT is such a bad thing. That allows applicants to get back from their summer holidays (when students can often take a while to climb back down into the zone), complete the UCAS stuff unimpeded by BMAT revision and they then have six weeks of schoolwork in the sciences to help towards the BMAT.
I also suspect that even if your DS does have a blip in the November BMAT, he'll nevertheless do well enough for UCL and Imperial too, so can go for the later BMAT with confidence that all won't be lost even without an Oxford score.

A day in Oxford wandering around sounds like a plan. Going in term time is a good idea, if that's possible.

Also Pumpkintopf if your DS is one of those who likes falling out of his bed into lectures - again, perfectly valid :) - then apply strategically! Wadham, Keble or St John's through the back passage all about three to five minutes on foot.

Ha ha, thank you goodbyestranger you sound very knowledgeable in the ways of teens!!