Medicine 2021

[Millylovespuddles]

Hi all
It looks like there’s no medicine 2021 entry thread yet, so it might be an idea to get the ball rolling.
My DD is getting stuck into her A level course, doing well so far, but I’m guessing we parents could do with some mutual support and advice from parents who’ve been here before.

@Needmoresleep I hope you weren't referring to me when said 'just did Medify a few time'. DD did nothing but practice for UCAT for 3 weeks, 7 hours a day. She hated it, struggled massively and some how got a good score on the day. Not 'stellar' and not good enough for lots of places. It was not easy !!! And she got 4 offers by I think strategically applying and weirdly having a part time job. All the Unis mentioned it and she could use examples from it to illustrate the things they asked her.

None of it was easy !!!!

I dont think you understand.

"Lower scores" probably just means someone reaches the top 50th percentile, not the top 70th. The system is still saying they would prefer an applicant who is not willing to be a prefect at school and who has limited experience outside school, but is informed enough to know that they really need to sit in their bedroom and get practicing UKCAT.

Which is exactly the same as happens in London where seven year olds spend Saturday mornings and holidays in tutorial colleges practicing 11+ rather than play football in the park.

DD claims that the real stars in her year are those with tip top interpersonal and listening skills, often those who arrived via contextual offers or foundation years. (Indeed a Bristolian accent apparently goes a very long way in putting patients at their ease.) There seems this huge focus on measurable outputs, not outcomes. So you do an intercalation to get an extra point for F1 etc. It's as if we are raising our children and our future medics to focus entirely on measurable achievements not wider personal development.

@LaLaFlottes, I think this is all correct, although GANFYD would know best, obviously just use this as a pointer if you want to, but check 2021 arrangements on websites.

GCSE heavy (basically need all A*s to have a good chance of interview) - Oxford, Cardiff (UCAT doesn't matter), Leeds, Edinburgh (also high UCAT and SJT).

GCSEs scored and used with UCAT - lots, including Leicester, Birmingham, Kings, Nottingham, Liverpool, QUB, HYMS, UEA?

GCSEs just need to meet thresholds of 5-7 As, UCAT used for ranking those who meet GCSE cut off - Newcastle, Sheffield, St Andrews, Manchester

GCSEs not used (other than B/5/6 for English/maths)- Bristol (all UCAT), Exeter (use A levels)

@Needmoresleep I do agree UCAT is a blunt tool, but I can see why PS isn't fair either. Too many are written by adults, and indeed an entire industry sprang up to offer 'advice' to those who could afford it. There are Unis that take much lower UCATs now so hopefully that evens things a bit. And the MMIs are surely designed to ensure that the students have empathy and all the other skills needed ? All Unis interview so they can choose the ones they think will make the best doctors.

No way is going to suit everyone and so many more great students than places. No clue what the answer is. And I love a Bristol accent too - hoping youngest will go there !

@goodbyestranger

I completely understand why KISS is such a useful strategy for you

Indeed GANFYD and the value of the strategy has paid rich dividends even if one is limiting what's measured to uni admissions.

Whereas relying on forums where certain posters are dependent on people needing their 'advice' can lead to real problems. It's an interesting - or possibly not so interesting - psychological state. I much prefer to KISS; can't recommend it too highly :)

Incidentally, did you note what Toby said in relation to your assertion about the GMC? Even if you don't want to KISS, please don't get your information plain wrong, even if you can't help yourself from over complicating everything. That's especially unfair on those who have come to rely on you.

*They have been told by the GMC what they are to assess

No we haven't.*

For your convenience.

Sorry, bolding fail.

Monkey I can only assume that you weren't relying on TSR/ GANFYD for your DS's first round of applications in 2018.

That said, I've no doubt that plenty of her advice is reasonable. My issue is that some is wrong, as just illustrated. And so the difficulty becomes: how will others' know?

I mean, just to re-iterate that GANFYD's Oxford advice was wrong too, also as demonstrated above. I'm wondering what else is in doubt?

@goodbyestranger
Incidentally, did you note what Toby said in relation to your assertion about the GMC? Even if you don't want to KISS, please don't get your information plain wrong, even if you can't help yourself from over complicating everything. That's especially unfair on those who have come to rely on you.

Which assertion I am supposed to have made are you referring to?

@Monkey2001 thank you so much for taking the time to pass on that info - it’s really useful. We are trawling the websites but some are easier than others to find all of the info!

Seeing as St Andrews don’t put as much emphasis on GCSEs, would this be a silly choice?

She’s really keen to put at least one Scottish university, if not two, as we have loads of family up there and St Andrews really appeals - plus I think Edinburgh and St Andrews have the most spaces for “rest of UK students”. We are planning to go to the StA open day in April

I suppose until we know UCAT scores I guess we can’t plan too much!

They have been told by the GMC what they are to assess

Ok, so it is actually HEE. There are various groups who contribute to medicine admissions criteria. I was just trying to KISS!

Mumsneedwine, you dont get the point.

Should we not be encouraging potential medics to live a little, take on responsibilities, reach out into the wider community and contribute, rather than sit at home practicing an aptitude test. The US system expects applicants to have wider skills, the UK one seems to be looking for increasing norrowness.

The more you describe the land of leafy comps, the more it appears to be a hot bed of mediocrity. It might be in your world that "Too many are written by adults, and indeed an entire industry sprang up to offer 'advice' to those who could afford it." What is your evidence? There is no way DD would have been allowed to skive writing a PS. (We even held back from correcting some of the angularity - she was claiming to be dyslexic and her PS was proof!) And looking at DDs intake there is little evidence that many will have had help with their PS. Just a lovely bunch of interesting, active students, with many coming from outside major urban centres. As you said yourself, it seems to be Nottingham that attracts the Etonians and students from affluent parts of the SE.

The system suits your DD. My big argument is that you then, repeatedly suggest that medical school application is straight forward as your DD was able to get four offers. Again, again, again, your DD is not the only MN DC who will make a good doctor. Lots applying for 2021 will have DC who will make good doctors, but some will struggle with the current selection process. It then becomes really hard to explain either that they need to stop what they are doing and sit in their bedroom and practice UKCAT. (The boy we know who got a fabulously high score after practicing for six months then went on to have to resit some of his first year exams - so I am surprised if the correlation between mark and subsequent performance is that strong) or scramble to find a med school using different criteria. When Bristol did not use UKCAT they ended up with 17 applicants for each place. The trouble is that it is then difficult to post on support threads and the inevitable message is that everything is easy so something is wrong with your child.

All I am asking is that you show some sensitivity to those who are likely to have a more difficult journey.

How soon into the process would you suggest aspiring medics should be starting to engage with medify?

@goodbyestranger
Monkey I can only assume that you weren't relying on TSR/ GANFYD for your DS's first round of applications in 2018.

You really are an unspeakably awful person. If you want to try and attack me, by all means feel free, but do not try and use other people's difficult times as weapons

LaLaFlottes,

when helping DD with her research, and it was a struggle to identify places where she had a realistic chance, I looked at St Andrews and the threads on TSR. My impression was that there was a lot less competition for those opting for clinical in London or Liverpool, so it seemed like an interesting option.

I would also look at SGUL. Its London but not really London, and we know several people who have been very happy there. Tooting is a nice suburb and there is lots of green and scope to commute in from cheaper places further south on the northern line. The drawback is that it is a standalone medical school so student social life may be limited, though equally it seems to produce a bonded group. Indeed part of the reason DD used to know people studying there is that she payed sport with them in a nearby community sports club.

@Pumpkintopf - we are at the same stage as you so can only say what we are doing and others will have more valuable advice however we have bought the Medify season pass that lasts until end of July. DD is doing a couple of hours every weekend just to start getting a feel for it and then plans to immerse herself in it more as time goes on.

She’s learning how to approach the questions and once she feels more confident she will start trying to pick up speed.

Medify has video tutorials which are great too.

So I guess I’m just saying she’s started early but only using it for a couple of hours a week, but she thought this might just take the edge off it and stop any panic if she left it until closer to the time and really struggled.

Hope this helps! I’m sure others will share their experiences and what worked for them too

@Needmoresleep I have no idea why you have to be unpleasant. You say some very rude and disparaging things, when I am agreeing with you and see your point of view. Why ? Why be rude ?
My DD has lived well thanks. Travelled, worked in a shop and as an HCA, has a fantastic sporting life, and is on 2 committees at Uni this year. If this is mediocrity I will take it over your world of unnecessary rudeness. I believe your child went to an expensive private school. I hope she has better manners than her mother.

@Needmoresleep and because you annoyed me, and I hate lies, here are the main destinations of Harrow and some posh girls school in N London. Can't find Eton but as far as I know there's one in he year out of 260. I mean how dare a comp kid get more offers than those public school ones. Do we not know our place !! Seems Bristol is v popular. Weird your DD is the only one from a public school.
Oh and I don't work in a leafy comp.

@LaLaFlottes

I don't think the figures for Intake Targets have been released for this year yet (though Monkey is likely to know more). This is a link to last year's
www.sfc.ac.uk/web/FILES/announcements_sfcan062019/Intake_Targets_for_Medicine_AY_2019-20.pdf

Here is also a link to figures showing St Andrews' recent UKCAT cut offs for those applying under different fee statuses and to different routes
www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/599335/response/1437054/attach/3/ResponseV1.0.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

We looked at St Andrews for #2, but he decided against it in the end. I love it there and know some medics who are/have had a great time, though I think the move at 3 years needs to be considered (most love it, a few find it unsettling and disruptive, but something to weigh up)

We also have looked at Aberdeen and Dundee directly and at varying times interviewed and Offer Dayed at both. I cannot recommend them highly enough as places to study medicine, but the limited number of RUK places now makes them very hard to get into.

Glasgow and Edinburgh have also been on longlists. Glasgow is really UCAT only and still a panel interview x2. Edinburgh have historically required ridiculous stats and I haven't seen much evidence of that changing for RUK applicants this year (though does seem to have come down a tad for Home/EU).

Your DD has excellent GCSEs and this means most options are still open.
I also have one with multiple 9s who "loses out" as 8s and 9s are scored the same, but I guess med schools have decided that and 8 is "good enough" and do not need to distinguish further between applicants.

My only caution over Cardiff is that there were quite a few people with full marks in GCSE who were rejected this year and Cardiff have not been 100% clear what they used to make this decision. There seems to be anecdotal evidence that it was PS as a tick box exercise, but their website does state they may use UCAT. I suspect they may have to make changes to their selection procedure this year, as if full marks in their main scoring algorithm does not guarantee an interview, then it is a bit pointless using it! For 2019 entry they scored 8s and 9s differently, so they may go back to this, as I believe they are not big fans of the UCAT (cut off was 25/27 when they did this). Something to watch out for if your DD is interested.

@LaLaFlottes

The UCAT is a weird test. As I have said previously, it is an aptitude test, so not like GCSEs or A levels where, for a smart child, working a bit more or in a different way can lead to excellent results. There does seem to be a natural level, as a range, that applicants can achieve, dependent on their intrinsic aptitude.
However, there is no doubt that scores can be improved considerably by good preparation as speed is one of the main things tested (so quick assimilation of info, ruling out irrelevant options and knowing when to cut your losses and move on). This is where many people get stuck. With enough time, most people sitting the exam could answer most questions and some DCs get stuck with "just a few more seconds and I'm there" on the early questions and have no time for the later ones. Yet they are all worth the same marks.

So your daughter's approach of familiarising herself with the format and how to answer the questions and then working on speed is a good one for many people. It is like all tests - the amount of work needed and the preparation style is individual to all sitting it. My eldest did about 2-3 weeks of prep at a couple of hours a night, has dyslexia and ADHD, which showed as he came out with 890, 900, low 700s, high 600s! We did not apply for more time, which may have been a mistake, but luckily his score was high enough for the med schools he wanted. #2 watched a few youtube vidoes and fiddled around with a few questions, but did not worry in the slightest about it (or any area of the admissions process) throughout - he is the unusual one, in my experience. And DCs who allocate some time to work at it on a regular basis, forget, have more "important" things to do and then cram for the last few days - which is sadly a pattern for my offspring!

So my advice for your DD is to prepare how she knows works for her, but not to expect to score in the way she has in more traditional exams (at almost full marks, by the look of her results), where people are encouraged to methodically work through and answer all questions. Some questions on UCAT are definitely harder than other (or more accurately, more time-consuming) so should be intelligent-guessed, flagged and move on and actually will take less time than some of the middling ones! So not answering some questions with a worked through solution is not a bad thing - it just leaves more time for those where marks are easier to come by

@SirTobyBelch

My comments were meant to show that the GMC sets what needs to come out at the end of med school and that it therefore would not be unreasonable for med schools to look at what outcomes were required when deciding on traits and skills they want to put in at the beginng (but was not clearly elucidated in this way, sorry!). In the same way that schools look at what an exam board requires before deciding which children are suitable to be entered for Higher or Foundation maths - most are going to look at who is already demonstrating the required skills at a lesser level to decide on where to place them.

My understanding is med schools have until Summer 2020 to make sure their curriculae meet the new Outcomes for Graduates, so it would seem to make sense that med schools should use these to select applicants that demonstrate they are likely to meet these outcomes?

Many med schools websites suggest they are using the Outcomes set by the GMC as a guide and hence to pre-select those who already show:
Professional and ethical responsibilities
Dealing with complexity and uncertainty
Safeguarding vulnerable patients
Leadership and team working, etc etc?

You have far more experience than me, is this not the case?

"Too many are written by adults, and indeed an entire industry sprang up to offer 'advice' to those who could afford it." What is your evidence?

This suggests there is a market for PS writing services, so somebody must be using them?
www.google.com/search?q=medicine+personal+statement+writing+service&oq=medicine+PS+writing+se&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5j69i64.6345j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8