Medicine 2021

[Millylovespuddles]

Hi all
It looks like there’s no medicine 2021 entry thread yet, so it might be an idea to get the ball rolling.
My DD is getting stuck into her A level course, doing well so far, but I’m guessing we parents could do with some mutual support and advice from parents who’ve been here before.

Our school not out school (trying to cook in a hurry - late supper).

Also, no such thing as BMSAT as far as I know.

My favoured pathway for med school applicants would be a compulsory gap year to include hospital work experience, eg HCA for maybe 3 months, with standardised assessments by mentors in this time-frame, so applicants have matured a bit, really seen what it is like to work at the coal-face and have an accurate, reproducible reference/report.

It might be your favoured pathway GANFYD but most students I know, who've been perfectly successful in their applications, would tell you where to get off with that one. Most are raring to go by the end of Y13. I note you omit any mention of the financial implications of that one as well.

@goodbyestranger

Can you explain the statistics for me, please?

@goodbyestranger

But if it were the only way of meeting the criteria for application, the students could do it like everyone else, or not apply!
Financial implications for whom?

Pumpkintopf, unfortunately Oxbridge dont offer year long courses to external students.

It's a pity. One example is medical ethics, where Oxford is seen as a very strong and interesting department, yet not accessible unless you are taking your whole degree there.

Still, as you can see from the website, there are lots of really interesting things you can do elsewhere. And a chance to break up your studies, live somewhere else, or return home for thr year.

The ability to intercalate was one of Dds criteria. (And sorry I got Birmingham wrong. It's been a while.)

You were initially addressing sendsummer not me. I don't have any difficulty with the statistics nor with the Oxford admissions process. This is manufactured complexity.

Oh I see Pumkintopf. I thought you meant why don't Oxbridge students have the opportunity to intercalate away from their own uni. Sorry. Shouldn't try to make macaroni cheese and MN simultaneously!

Oh dear GANFYD perhaps it wasn't simply a typo when you wrote that you don't live in the real world! Financial implications for the young people in question/ their parent/s.

@goodbyestranger
I don't have any difficulty with the statistics

Could you explain it to me then, please? I am not sure where my reasoning falls down

Oh dear GANFYD perhaps it wasn't simply a typo when you wrote that you don't live in the real world! Financial implications for the young people in question/ their parent/s.

Well I guess they would need to work out what, if anything, they wanted to pay/charge for keep out of their wages, if they were still at home? It is not up to me to decide something like that for a young person or their parents. Some may feel ready to move away, as you say and I think budgeting would be a useful skill to develop before uni

I'm not going to indulge you GANFYD. If you have a quarrel with sendsummer then engage with her. Although I do wonder who your constituency is, that you're having to weigh extreme niceties of fractions of GCSEs in order to give the green light for an application to Oxford! It's curious, given that only a few pages back I was instructed by you that Oxford was only middlingly competitive :) If true, why the angst - just whack in an application!

@goodbyestranger

It is rather sad that you won't share your knowledge with others on the forum. Is this going to continue to all aspects of the thread?

I was not quarrelling with anyone. I thought I was applying a statistical analysis and was told it was wrong and I was hoping somebody could tell me where I made mistakes. You say you don't have any difficulty with it, so hoped you would agree to refresh my stats. I am not sure why you are refusing? I addressed my original question to sendsummer and you replied

Just for a bit of light relief, may I just hark back a page or two to the statement They are the cohort which sat GCSEs in 2017, the first year in which the vast majority of subjects were graded 9-1? 2017 was actually the first year of any 9-1 grading, in Maths, English Language and English Literature ('normal' GCSEs).

DD took GCSEs in 2017 at a local grammar and has 8,8,7, 2A*, 5A. 2018 was the first all 9-1 year, with the exception of Further Maths, which remained 'alphabetical' last year as well.

Yes, I have one with all numbers and an A hat, as he calls it, in further maths from last year

Thanks needmoresleep and goodbyestranger that makes sense now.

With GCSE, I do find it strange that grade 8 and 9 are being looked at as the same achievement. I thought part of the reasoning behind the numerical system was to bring more differentiation between A star and something above that.
DD got eight grade 9 and two grade 8 for her GCSEs and it would have been nice to have the 9’s recognised a bit more.

They have been told by the GMC what they are to assess

No we haven't. Admission to medical school is one area in which the GMC's direction is fairly light-touch. The GMC tells us we have to do a better job of recruiting students from under-represented groups. Health Education England tells us we have to recruit on the basis of adherence to NHS values (but hasn't audited us...yet). The GMC did commission some research on best practice in medical student selection, which pushed more schools into using UCAT to select for interview, and MMI as the favoured form of interview. Apart from that, it's largely left up to us as long as what we do is fair and transparent. In my opinion, the processes that are fair are not entirely transparent, while those that are transparent are not entirely fair. You can't have everything.

GANFYD I think you may have now processed the fact that I can't take much of what you say seriously but to be clear, I introduced the Oxford Pre-Clinical link so I was therefore very likely to comment, whereas you got wrapped around the statistics quite needlessly and chose to engage on that point with sendsummer, who now appears to have better things to do than help you out of your difficulties. As indeed do I. Just making a less decisive job of it than sendsummer :)

Again, to be clear, my view is that you make med school admissions look complex because that then makes others far more likely to feel they need your advice, and you (from what you and others have said) have carved this out on other platforms as your particular niche.

It seems to be that the vast over complication of the Oxford data (which you swiftly claimed to know so well) illustrates the point exactly. KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is a very useful acronym - has served me well!

In my opinion, the processes that are fair are not entirely transparent, while those that are transparent are not entirely fair.

That's interesting too Toby. This year various people have been put out by the new admissions process (general, not Medicine specific) at Oxford saying it should have been more transparent ahead of time. My vote on that thread was for an element of opaqueness, on the grounds that it allowed for a little more actual fairness.

@LaLaFlottes they are amazing GCSE results and will give advantage at some medical schools. That's what she needs to research ! But she has given herself the option to apply anywhere and get passed the first hurdle.
And please can we not get into the Oxford thing again. This thread was almost back on track last night.

@mumsneedwine thank you - those results didn’t come easy, she worked her socks off, but I was so pleased for her that her hard work paid off. She’s currently researching which Universities put a fair bit of emphasis on GCSE - she has a spreadsheet she’s building up! Especially trying to figure out a few that would still be a possibility if UCAT doesn’t go her way!

We are planning in some open days, Nottingham is on the list (which I think is where your DD is) along with StAndrews, Cardiff, Hull and York, Sheffield and maybe Keele and Edinburgh. But this list changes regularly based on her research!!

Oh dear, to channel that doctor again, give over mumsneedwine. GANFYD asked me to help her out re the Oxford link and I've just declined.

SirToby, interesting.

There are plenty of third and fourth year students in Bristol very aware that they would not get a place if they applied now. And a sense that the current first year has a different profile. (The noticeable thing about DDs year is how few students there seem to be from London and the South East or from major private schools - almost in exact contrast to Bristol University itself.) Transparency means the chance for those in the know to focus their applications, making it more difficult for those who don't have the same level of resource.

Its a bit like London 11+. State schools are transparent - which leads to 11+ tutoring starting at seven, whereas independent schools have a bit more discretion. Most people would take grammar if offered, and independent have a level of selection by income, though there is still quite a lot of social overlap. Yet no obvious evidence from results that grammars, despite access to a wider pool, have successfully top sliced the most able, almost the reverse. A bit of discretion appears to help create a more level playing field.

Dyslexic DD who can't do timed tests was 800th on the waitlist for our nearest grammar, yet thrived in the private sector, was not interviewed at Nottingham despite good GCSEs because of a poor UKCAT but was able to use other strengths to gain a place at Bristol. It seems sad that this door is now closed to her and those of her friends with less standard profiles. I am not convinced, though I am sure others will argue, that UKCAT is a better predictor of who will make a good doctor than a strong PS which demonstrated a range of leadership, resilience, initiative, empathy and so on.

I hope a few medical schools remain open to those who don't fit easily into standard boxes. DD is really interested in other types of non-neurotypicality, including autism and her different, yet effective learning style (Bristol records lectures which is wonderful, as she can replay them rather than rely on note taking) will suit some NHS roles.

(And I hope it explains why it can be so difficult to read some of the "its so easy, DD just practiced with Medify a few times, and got four offers" type of posts. It was not easy for us. Nor for several lurkers who have messaged me in the past, or indeed for several kids we have known in real life. )

@LaLaFlottes Cardiff should definitely be on her list as they use GCSEs and not UCAT (currently !). She would get full marks at Notts for her GCSEs so could slip a bit in UCAT and still get an interview. Sheffield only see if you have 7 7s and then they just rank by UCAT, as do Bristol now.
@Needmoresleep it's hard to compare then and now as UCAT has changed since then and also lots of places take lower scores - because they don't use PS. The SJT has started to be used more too which can't be a bad thing !