latest University tables - how seriously should it be taken?

[meeeeeeeeee]

The University my son has chosen has one of the worst student satisfaction ratings but is traditionally very highly rated for both course and University - would you take it seriously?

How do Universities get students to complete surveys? I seem to recall DS and his friends received Amazon vouchers, though I suspect it did not encourage them to say anything positive.

What would be far more interesting would be a ten year follow up. I think answers would be quite different when out of the student bubble. I suspect that responses might include things like "I had a great time, but wish now that I had gone somewhere more rigorous" or "I found my degree tough going and I had to work very hard, but it opened lots of doors and I am glad I stuck it out."

As for the LSE, and despite the whining (LSE has come absolute bottom of student satisfaction tables for years, which seems part of the reason why the Government appears to have abandoned plans to partly link funding to satisfaction rates) virtually all DS' friends who took a Masters stayed on there, with DS turning down a place at Oxford. One decided on UCL for a change of scenery, and a UCL grad moved in the opposite direction. DS has also said that if starting again he would opt for the same course at the same place. This almost certainly is not reflected in how they answered the survey, but would appear 10 years on. there's gratitude for you

One important thing is to recognise that satisfaction will reflect aspiration. So a student who opts for, say, Newcastle because they want a great social life may well be very happy. World class education and opening professional doors internationally? Imperial might have delivered more.

There may also be bias in original perception. It's Oxford so I am going to have a ball. No one enjoys Imperial but I am going there to enhance my career prospects. Both students might have engaged in their courses to a similar extent and both made good friends, but may still perceive their experiences differently.

LSE has come absolute bottom of student satisfaction tables for years, which seems part of the reason why the Government appears to have abandoned plans to partly link funding to satisfaction rates)

No, this is due to the change of minister. Jo Johnson was keen to push ahead with this and would have done so had he stayed in position.

What others say re the unreliable nature of league tables )and my department regularly appears in the national top 3).

One way of looking at it is that the more challenging courses are likely to have lower student satisfaction rates. Because nowadays many young people are not prepared adequately for the rigours of university study.

Also, since the £9k fee, students are just generally grumpy.

The data is usually last year’s or the year before, so it’ll be 2 to 3 years old for undergrads starting in September 2019.

The other thing you need to do is look st the individual indicators used eg spend per student, etc etc. These often give a more nuanced picture.

The Guardian league tables don’t include research, so are fundamentally flawed. You have little idea of the intellectual quality of staff teaching- are they making the new knowledge at the cutting edge?

Haven't looked at the report but I agree it is really important to look at individual subjects. Ds is loving his PIR course at Aberdeen - and the Uni is well regarded overall.

But the 1st year macroeconomics course is atrocious because of the appalling lecturer. Not sure how many took the course - but the largest lecture theatre on campus, which presumably is the absolute maximum that could take the course, holds 600 people. There are 280 resits (Ds scraped a pass and never wants to do Economics again ). The only people who even half understood what he was on about were those that had done Higher or A Level Economics - but even they said that he was atrocious.

Ironically, ds hadn't expected to enjoy Microeconomics (Macro was more relevant for PIR) which he did 1st semester, but the lecturer was good (reflected in there being only 26 resits )

Ds' feedback on the Macroeconomics course has not missed and hit the wall!

LSE has a high proportion of international students (those who have not been resident in the UK) who are paying their tuition fees and probably all of their living costs upfront. Do you think this could increase expectations (compared with UK residents who have student finance) and therefore affect levels of student satisfaction?

Looking at a couple of subjects I know about, some of the placings are reasonable but there's some which really can't be.

I don't want to give the specific example but there's one case of a subject we know in a local uni where in the past DH has commented that he's looked on its website at the staff (numbers and background), and can't work out how they can teach the subject properly at all ... it's placed at number 2 . High employment stats ...but it's a field where you really may want to think about factors whether a degree there is likely to lead to a PhD in a decent research group. (One of the reasons research rating is important)

TheFirstOHN I think this works two ways.

International students are paying a lot, do if £9000 is turning UK students into consumers, £27,000 (if that is what it is) will presumably have a greater effect on internationals. They will go home and compare notes with friends who have opted for the US, Canada, Australia, the National University of Singapore or HKU. A particular problem then is that Asian education can be very presciptive, even at University level so lots of contact time. The UK approach, requiring a level of self organisation can be disorientating. Not helped if A level grades were achieved through very hard work and significant tutoring, which can be the case. And that is before you start on being 18 and thousands of miles away from home.

(I dont know if it is true but a Singaporean friend was saying that the Government, who still send significant numbers of students abroad on Government scholarships, now offer classes in cooking, cleaning and laundry before departure as so many middle class kids grow up in households with Philippina maids, as one way of minimising the culture shock.)

Then as disorientated overseas students cling together for support UK students complain about not having the "University experience" they hoped for.

Not always true obviously. DS was very into his subject, and as a result his friendship group was very diverse. State/private, UK/European/overseas differences did not really matter when there was real common interest, which now means, two years after graduation, he already has fantastic international networks, far far more useful than those gained at private school.

At his graduation I was talking to the HK girl who used to organise the group pub sessions, who explained how abjectly unhappy she had been during her first year. She was staying on for a Masters, so presumably had worked her way through it, but I assume this would bleed into a student satisfaction survey. Again, another girl had wanted to study something completely different and in the US, but her dad had decreed that an economics offer from the LSE was too prestigious to turn down. She had been tutored a lot up to A level and really struggled with the maths. Not surprisingly she hated the course.

There are so many factors which influence the rankings. The Average Entry Tariff, for example, is not the grades required to get on the course, but the average TOTAL UCAS points students have when they arrive, so this is affected by:

• if the student does 4 (or more) A levels or 3. Independent schools are disproportionately more likely to do more than 3, so you'll find this score is heavily affected by the % of private school students at a uni
• if students have UCAS points from other activities e.g. music/drama/dance/EPQ. Again this is usually higher in private schools.

When my son arrived at his uni last year, within the first few days he had been asked to fill in a form listing ALL his A levels and other activities and they prompted heavily, listing everything that was eligible - music exams, EPQ etc

Similarly, Universities which have a specific policy of accepting students with low grades as part of an access policy will tend to have their average score depressed. This one of the reasons cited for Bristol falling in the rankings in recent years.

sorry to but in, but as a parent only and with an average student, who didn't bother with the RG universities, all the others and the government seem happy to go on their gold, silver and bronze ratings plus student satisfaction ratings.
Both Lincoln, he is there, and UC Scarborough, made the point in parent talks that the old way of ranking relies heavily on research rankings. But they pointed out the RG and especially Oxbridge and London universities dominate all research funding and many who award research fund/jobs are ex those places.
So basically newer universities where stuffed.

So the government and Office of Students want to move away from that. Lincoln point out all it's undergraduates will do research work in the 3 years, whilst many higher universities only use post grads for research.

I wonder if that places like Lincoln and Nottingham Trent seem to be constantly rising up the tables.
Lincoln is 17th in the Guardian one and 42 in one the main ones.

Maybe "lower" universities are actually, shock horror (heresy on mumsnet of course home of Oxbridge or nowt), are bloody good at what they do, and maybe their students actually really like studing there.

But of course you could only truly feel those feelings at Oxbridge, RG or London universities

2boys, I dont understand your argument. The Guardian table favours Universities like Lincoln. OP is asking how much credence she should give to it. It appears the University her son is destined for, receives a relatively low satisfaction score.

I think in general posters are suggesting that she drill down reasons behind a low score, and her son decide whether these are important to him.

I do not understand the point you are trying to make. University choice should always be about the right course for the individual. And what suits one may well not suit another.

The point is ....... Lincoln is best!!!! No need to look anywhere else!

Even take employability with a pinch of salt DD was doing the same job before uni as after (was waiting to start post grad course) and again same job after post grad course (applied for grad schemes the following year) but both unis just wanted to tick a box to say she was employed.

Bubbles.

I often misunderstand what I assume is your attempts at humour.

Lincoln may well be the best University for the PPs son, in the way that LSE was probably the best for mine. (Both coincidently taking subjects that are not offered by many University.)

Student satisfaction statistics may be valuable but they need to be understood and interpreted.

University choice should always be about the right course for the individual. And what suits one may well not suit another.

This, in spades. While the relative positions cited in this post:
^ Loughborough - 4
King's College London - 63

Bath - 6
Queen Mary - 83
^

may be puzzling to some, but if you don't want to be in London and maybe aren't expecting absolutely top grades, for some subjects Bath and Loughborough would be very sensible places to consider.

Some of the newer unis will be perfect for some applicants, some courses.

Loughborough has a reputation for sport but only if you are elite, forget it if you are at medium level

Yes, needmoresleep, it was a tongue in cheek comment! I would have thought that was obvious. Do you have a humour bypass and are you serious all the time!? No need to answer that - I think I know what your response will be. (I’m just opening the door to my bunker now).

We just have a different sense of humour. It is not the first time I have got it wrong. You calling me homophobic recently was a bit of a corker, but again probably what goes down in the Home Counties as funny My concern was that other posters might have perceived your contribution as a bit goady. The internet is difficult. We all have different backgrounds and values. I think it is important to recognise this.

I also think that this is why league tables can be important. If you know what you are looking for, and what your priorities are, the figures can be unpicked and yield useful information. And I think it is useful to know which Universities might offer a happy and supportive environment.

I give up, I seriously do.
Ever one of you said to ignore Guardian table, ignore student satisfaction, and only go by traditional tables, ie ones who use research.

I get that, but on here it's Oxbridge, Lse, UCL, RG parents galore and I get the feeling all the professors are based in very similar universities.
So everyone says dismiss the Guardian, because they ignore research.
I say no don't ignore, use it and compare it to others.

Christ we used the Guardian, Times, unifacts and which produced tables, on the whole university and then chosen degree.
each gave a picture all slight different, and yes to snobby bubblesbuddy Lincoln came out top of Ds chosen 8.

I now only look at mumsnet education boards once a month.
We have 2 boys, see name, primary pointless, Education home of which private is best, secondary if not GCSE thread, it's which boarding, indie, ISEB exam or which London state school.
Higher is Oxbridge or which ones come in next 6.
some one dares to ask about Chester, nothing
Salford same, Harper Adams 8 replies
Lincoln never been a thread.

Clearly mumsnet isn't a parenting/education site for all. It is a site for the rich privately educated, posh university crowd. The rest of us, clearly aren't welcome and I tend to use which or TES to investigate future outcomes for my kids.

Yes so take the piss do, Bubblesbuddy loves piss on my kids chips, but I don't care, I off and you can go back to your closed cosy red brick echo chambers.
There are 122 universities in the UK, I better at least more then 70 have never ben mention on here, so sad.
Little wonder all Politian's are so out of touch.

That was a bit unnecessary 2boys. No-one said ignore the Guardian. People just pointed out why the others are very similar and tend not to move from one year to another. Everyone has said use the data available to work out what's important for your child. What's great fro one won't be great for another.

If very few MNers have experience of Salford, Chester, Harper Adams (which won't be surprising given that they're small and/ or specialist) people can't comment can they.

LOADS of people on here recommend the post-92s for vocational courses - over and above the RG.

Adn the MN demographic is London and SE dominant (again - London has a population of 8m so unsurprising) so inevitably experience will be based on location.

Funny - I haven't said ignore or even use the league tables - although I have said to drill down more deeply to see what is important for your child as apparently satisfactory Unis can still have unsatisfactory subject courses or lecturers ; my ds is at Aberdeen ; I live in Scotland ; I went to a Scottish state school ; and I am a strong advocate of comprehensive state education (as all Scottish state education is and has been for over 40 years)

I will admit to having gone to an "ancient" Uni (St Andrews non RG - which ds had no interest in going to as he rightly said it didn't feel right for him even though it was the "best" on paper for what he wanted to do) and also admit to self-identifying as comfortably middle class (both my upbringing and now)

Someone put up a you tube talk by a lecturer on MN a while ago. He said to take the rankings with a pinch of salt, if one uni. is rated 12th and another 23rd there really isn`t much in it. So go with the one the student prefers. It was this guy. Very informative.

Another one.

I come from a background of 2 families who grow out of England's 3/4th worse council estate in England if not Britain, I am 50, in a recent survey 78% of my cohorts have no qualifications, 68% are unemployed. I left my comprehensive with out English and Maths O level, I have in 36 years never claimed a penny of the government. I have milked cows, moved chickens, repair slurry systems and now work 12 hour shifts.
I have one lad at Lincoln and one who might get GCSE 4,
So yes I talk about Lincoln it's the only one I know. But I have suggested CU Scarborough and Hull and Derby to others.
It hard not be Lincoln's great cheerleader on here, no one else is.

The guardian tables are aimed at people like us, they are useful.

I am other off before I say something that gets me banned