25% of Oxford places to go to poor students - who loses out?

[IrmaFayLear]

From the BBC website:

If 25% of places are to be targeted at applicants from poorer areas - and in recent years, about 40% of places have gone to pupils from private schools - then that leaves 35% for everyone else.

Even the BBC muses that the losers will be ordinary pupils from ordinary backgrounds - not rich enough for private school but living in nice enough areas.

Of course merit should not be overlooked in favour of gloss when admitting students, but I think this is increasingly less the case anyway. But admitting a large specific quota of students to one of the top universities in the world strikes me as nonsensical and unfair.

Also from what I’ve heard the threshold for family finances for students to get living expense loanisn’t high. Some simply wont be able to afford to fund their dc, I know several worrying about this.

From what you've heard? Well then here you go, actual details.
www.savethestudent.org/student-finance/parents-guide-tips-university.html#finance and see pics of the table.

And no one's saying you have to completely make up the difference yourself - dc can and do get jobs!

Oxford and Cambridge discourage term time jobs Atiao

Thanks for your condescending post. Yes that is what I’d pretty much discovered and it’s scary. They’ll get the minimum as we’re just over and will have living expenses of around £770 a month.

Imperial have a policy against working too.

As does Bristol 10-15 hours weekend.

I worked through uni and it isn’t ideal. You can’t just ring in when you have a heavy work load. You go in or lose the job. That was in the days when degrees were paid for and lecture hours small. No idea what the work load is now. Do feel free to post a condescending post citing lack of research buts it’s pretty impossible to estimate. Degrees vary and people work at different rates..

Fizz - I suspect if a student is bright enough and capable enough to get an Oxford place there is not that much angst about whether they will then be able to pass exams to stay on. I think that worry is more likely to happen when kids with Cs and Ds go on to lower ranked unis.

The reality is with Oxbridge places if you think you child is potentially going there that it is indeed cheaper than many other places because there are bursaries available from the individual colleges, the terms are short and therefore you pay for accommodation over a lot shorter time (other unis have longer rental terms).

It seems to.me that your concerns are uni related in general rather than Oxford specific. What age are your kids and do they have a likely route in mind?

SillyBilly. - I think there is an over emphasis on what indies provide by way of assistance for pre assessment tests. The advice at our school was merely to have a go at the tests on the uni website onlines and available to everyone but not to "revise" as such but rather to get used to format as they aren't the type of tests you can revise for because they are aptitude tests rather than formatted essays. TSA itself is more like the situational judgment tests that lots of employers use. Again, yes you yo can practice but they can't be taught.

Obviously STEP is an area that genuine assistance could be available.

and feel they could be at greater risk of drop out than at other unis.

Hopefully if they 'feel' like that they'll have the wit to check up whether that's actually true, find it isn't (as has already been said) and go for it.

Oxford and Cambridge discourage term time jobs

I think it might be in their contract with the college. However (as has already been said) there are funds available to support students who need help. And they can work in the summer vac.

DDs living expenses seem remarkably low. There really isn't an expensive drinking and clubbing culture for most. To our surprise she's not had to buy any books, between the online resources and the libraries. Meals in college are reasonably priced, but most of her food comes from Aldi.

They are GCSE age and it will be engineering, computer science probably who knows to be honest. It’s quite daunting thinking they’ll need to make Alevel choices which will impact on uni choices sooner rather than later. One is going round in circles.One already working when homework allows( not often). Lucky enough to have a menial job he can go in when it suits working for a friend. Real life job market isn’t like that.

Are those funds for all students or just the PP kids? Surely they’d do an assessment on household income or everybody would be trying it on.

F1. The salary is £25,000 before “loan” repayments. For heavens sake, at least quote facts when they are starkly available.

The Auger Report will probably conclude that some degrees are not worth it. Oxbridge is hardly likely to be on that radar. The cost of Oxbridge is often less due to low living costs.

That was in the days when degrees were paid for and lecture hours small. No idea what the work load is now

Lecture hours and workload, both then and now, depend on the subject. DDs workload on an MEng is heavy - quite similar to what DH and I had doing chemistry about 4 decades ago when we really wouldn't have had time for paid employment either. Arts degrees at Oxbridge may have more workload than similar degrees elsewhere (I'm don't know if that's correct) but I doubt more than a STEM degree anywhere. Even on stem degrees, students seem perfectly able to manage a good work-life balance.

Engineering and comp sci students from good universities are in the group who can get summer placements in their field which actually pay, btw!

Whatever when you look on a calculator and look at what they’d be paying on say £35k it’s not insignificant. I wouldn’t have wanted to pay it on top of saving for a house, running said house and paying for my own dc, saving for a pension etc.

Errol what type of jobs? Do they all get work or is it competitive. It would need to be guaranteed. I notice some companies and the forces support some STEM degrees which could be an option.

General taxation levels when DH and I graduated (in the days of 'free' degrees) was higher than current levels plus the 9% 'graduate tax'. It's worth remembering that when comparing then and now.

Errol what type of jobs? Do they all get work or is it competitive.

Well, of course it's competitive (now could it not be?) but they do seem to be able to find places. Jobs vary - last year DD was working for a major telecoms company, this year she'll be with a small electronics firm (she could have gone back to the first one but wanted a variety of experience). Some will get work in universities. There are quite a few scholarships available for engineers (eg via the IET), the sponsoring companies will often offer work. The university has lists of potential placements, but DD did also research local companies and found some possible alternatives. TBH if they find that scary, how would they cope with the alternative to uni, ie finding a full time job at the outset?

Repayments - if you've spent 3 years living on £400 a month for food, bills and entertainment, having a £30k salary (take home after pension contribution - roughly £1500 a month) spending a further 9% of this is really not going to hurt!

When I graduated the basic rate of income tax was 33%!

If you've never had it, you don't notice when it's gone!

Fizz nothing you have posted is specific to Oxford or Cambridge. And parents have always been expected to support their kids through uni - that's not new. As an aside - for Computing make sure your kid does Maths A level. They might also think about degree apprenticeships which exist in both computing and engineering and are free.

Silly - your kids school sounds terrible - that's where efforts on widening participation should be focussed imo - the school sector. Glad they made it though.

Every penny counts when you have a mortgage and children. We would notice it. It is something to be accounted for.

You wouldn't notice it if you'd never had it! You'd have a mortgage you could afford given the repayments. You're thinking from the POV of 9% of your salary suddenly being taken away from you.

If you think about it from the POV of a new graduate, with no dependents, paying a basic rate of tax of 29% - compared to your student life you'd feel rich.

As I said, my basic rate of tax when I graduated was 33%.

We had full grants as students so no our parents didn’t have to support us.It was easier to get on the housing ladder too.

They’ll have to save to get on the housing ladder too, not easy when paying rent and bills somewhere else. Every penny will count.

I see the interest goes up when you earn over a certain amount too. Is that limited or does it have scope to be raised further in the future?

And yes I do get this is not specific to Oxbridge but many state kids applying and taking up offers will consider all this, even fir Oxbridge. They’d be foolish not to.

Most young people applying to university now don't think about the finance in the same way we do ....it's all they've ever known and they seem very accepting of the situation. Unlike their parents!! I can recall some very angry dads from the days of my finance talks!

What it does mean is that students now view themselves as customers and it's resulted in the consumerisation of HE which is not a good thing.

There are certain groups who are very debt averse which does impact on their choices.

My dd got her statement from the student loan company a week ago for what she owes for the 3 years undergrad. It is scary to see the numbers. £47k and interest has been increasing steadily to now £200 per month. The interest on the initial loan is now stands around £5k. She also borrowed off student loan company £10k for her masters that statement hasn't come yet. I think I will bury that statement . Nevertheless I still think it's worth it for her going to a good uni despite the debt. She didnt go to Oxford like I said earlier. But went to Imperial undergrad and then UCL for masters. I dont think she could have managed doing a casual job at the time. Her course was intense at imperial. There was also no way she could have got a little job at masters. Because of the research experiments they run, means they can be at uni till 6-7pm at night.

When I look back and reflect on her rather cathartic and angst getting to this point. I'm rather relieved and at peace too. But I can also see just how easy it would have been for my dd to have slipped through the net like many of her friends drifted into low paid low skilled jobs. Rather than a life that opened more doors and opportunities aswell as the personal achievement and the whole London experience. She may never have got. I'm just glad some of these prestigious uni's are doing something to help pockets of crap secondary school that aren't managed properly and have a broken system. When kids are in these types of schools is easy for them to be put off further education for life and just want to finish and get a job. That's not the kids fault but rather the environment never natured them and any potential they had.

We had full grants as students so no our parents didn’t have to support us
There was always a means tested parental contribution.

I see the interest goes up when you earn over a certain amount too

Does it? do you have a link with details?

It was easier to get on the housing ladder too.

True, but that's got nothing to do with whether you've been to uni per se. If we went back to the good old days of full grants, someone would still have to pay - so, instead of those who've had the benefit of a university education paying, the people who hadn't would also be contributing via general taxation. That's regressive. If money is the main concern then for sure, make an estimation of whether your degree is likely to boost your earnings enough to cover the loan repayments.

Nevertheless I still think it's worth it for her going to a good uni despite the debt
Yes. Go to a good uni and do a good degree. Put kids off doing lower ranking degrees (combination of uni and subject) by all means, f1zz, but please don't go perpetuating myths which might put some off the likes of Oxbridge and imperial!

If you got a full grant it was because your parents' income was low. Same as now - kids from low income households get max maintenance.

Interest rates do increase yes, but repayments stay the same. Regardless. If your child decides not to work, or work in a low income job, or part time, or travel etc - there is no need to pay anything. No one chases you like they would a normal loan.

And the above applies to all unis, not just the high tariff ones we're talking about here.

In fact you're the sort of parent Oxbridge and similar need to change the mindset of - you're one of those parents who might have really really bright Oxford calibre kids, and you'll be doing your best to put them off.