25% of Oxford places to go to poor students - who loses out?

[IrmaFayLear]

From the BBC website:

If 25% of places are to be targeted at applicants from poorer areas - and in recent years, about 40% of places have gone to pupils from private schools - then that leaves 35% for everyone else.

Even the BBC muses that the losers will be ordinary pupils from ordinary backgrounds - not rich enough for private school but living in nice enough areas.

Of course merit should not be overlooked in favour of gloss when admitting students, but I think this is increasingly less the case anyway. But admitting a large specific quota of students to one of the top universities in the world strikes me as nonsensical and unfair.

Posters were wondering why the discrepancy of actual take up of offers from state pupils.Just putting forward some suggestions as there seems to be no concrete knowledge as to why.

Some families won’t be able to top up the loans for living if not eligible for full grants.

And call it what you like many will still regard it as debt and find it scary. They are called loans and loans have to be paid back. Some people won’t want that hanging over their shoulders and may well be persuaded that it isn’t worth it by well meaning family.

The drop out may be low but if you come from the non Oxbridge norm you may well think it will be you and not want to take the risk

Just putting forward some suggestions as there seems to be no concrete knowledge as to why.

Read this thread, specifically constanza's contributions. She (?) has done extensive research and explained the why on this thread....

Essentially structural and cultural barriers.

She hadn’t posted recently and yes was saying similar. Think I can comment too thanks.

There are some posts on here indeed!

If Oxford and Cambridge were bigger cities eg with arenas for bands, Wait a minute - you are talking about attracting the poor , yet now they've got the money to see bands in arenas?! Make your mind up!

Ds went to an ordinary comp. Nothing fancy there. We eat on our laps at home - no fancy dining here. In fact when ds went for his interview he texted me to say he had just had turbot and spotted dick! He hadn't encountered either before but he enjoyed them.

Ds's college mates love the gowns, traditions, posh meals... it's what makes Oxbridge Oxbridge and is an important factor in why many people want to go there. If you do away with all the traditions - make new canteens serving bland unchallenging food, perhaps demolish those pesky inconvenient old buildings, outlaw the chapels and choirs - well, you take away the chance of experiencing these from those students that certain posters deem are not capable of accessing them .

It does make grim reading from the stats that oxbridge over recruits from just 8 schools, mainly made up of private schools. Those 8 schools filled 1310 oxbridge places compared with 1220 filled from 2, 900 other state schools. When you see figures like that especially ordinary normal folks. Their natural assumption will be is that oxbridge is elitist and discriminatory. The sats don't lie They have a preference. Our kids dont stand a chance so why bother? I suppose what Oxford are doing now is better than nothing in readressing the balance. I'm glad they never had these types of stats when dd applied or that I never saw them, otherwise I might have been inclined to tell her not to bother.

One of those 8 is a state school with around 60 places from approximately 2000 students in each year group.

Actually 2 of the 8 are state 6th forms - Hills Road and Peter Symonds.

Which are the stats that 'don't lie' and show that the admissions tutors 'have a preference' sillybilly? Do you mean the one about the 8 schools?

So both the the non selective state sixth forms in the 8 have approximately 2-3% of each year group getting places compared to approximately 35% of WinColl (for example). They make it onto the list based on their sheer size as they each have 2000 - 2500 students per annum.

The drop out may be low but if you come from the non Oxbridge norm you may well think it will be you and not want to take the risk

Not even sure we could afford to top up the loans anyway.We’re not rich but we’re not poor either so pretty sure it’s pointless even applying and that is what I find incredibly annoying.

So F1zz, are you saying that you wouldn't encourage/support to go to university at all? Because other universities have higher drop out rates, and they much be one of those drop outs? And other universities halls can easily cost at least as much as an Oxford or Cambridge college.

Are you railing against barriers to further education in general, or Oxford and Cambridgev specifically?

Sorry I'm basically saying that for the average person looking at these stats. It does look very much like oxbridge have a preference for private schools versus state school. It's hard for normal folks to see pass these stats. It paints that picture that having money, living in the right catchment area for these selective colleges will give you an advantage oppose to going to a big standard comp. It puts people off from applying thinking that they dont stand a chance since oxbridge have a preference to a certain type of education not given by big standard comps.

Bog standard comps not 'big' auto type urgh

yes well that probably is the case but I am sure that the fact that Hills Road is full of the children of Cambridge academics doesn't hurt either!

whoops cross posted with lots - that was to numbersaremything

A quick Google shows the college next door to Peter Symonds has had 15 offers this year, so the pair have 82 offers spread amongst 4500 pupils, giving 1.8% offers in total for 2019 entry.

Is that really how you read those stats silly? 25% of privately educated applicants are made offers compared to 22% of state educated applicants?

How on earth do you work out from that that Oxford significantly prefers private schools kids?

I had to look them up, but there are no selective state 6th forms in Hampshire & probably more families with an army background than academic background.

Ooops, posted too soon. And there are no catchment areas for 6th form colleges there either.

titchy im saying headlines like this www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/education-46470838
The headline from this article. Is somewhat saying this, but I maybe wrong and its misleading I'm no statistician . But average folks reading this will have assumptions.

Ah right. That's a very poor article. Not surprising from the BBC tbh.....

They say hardly anyone from Southampton goes to Oxbridge. What that means is that hardly anyone from a state school with a Southampton postcode goes there. If you know anything about Hampshire you'd know that there are no school sixth forms and state sixth form colleges in Southampton are vocational, with kids doing A levels going to one of three (I think) colleges elsewhere in the county.

Knowsley and Salford are the same - very small areas where kids travel to outside that area to do A levels.

There was a MN thread at the time!

Yeah I only know about the Peter Symonds School as my friend has lad and a lass there. She literally moved across the country so the kids could have a chance to get into the school. Knowing that it will prepare them better and help them get to the desirable uni's. Whilst muggins here is like if only I could just up sticks at a drop of a hat for my kids.

There's nothing to stop your kids going to great universities if they're capable. How many fucking times do we have to say this - there is no conspiracy whereby only private school kids or those at OFSTED outstanding colleges can go to a high tariff university. PS has thousands of kids who attend - it's a great college but less than 2% end up at Oxbridge - it's not a shoo-in!

Support your kids, find out the required A levels subjects and grades, and encourage them, believe in them. That's basically it. Rocket science it ain't.

Hills Road does indeed select and interview and expects 7s if you want to do maths/science gcses and a 6 in maths and English generally. There are not only Cambridge academics that live in Cambridge but also there is Addenbrookes Hospital a CU training hospital, a massive tech business area, all 4 of the Big 4 Accountants plus 5 and 6, a massive Science Park and pharna industries, Microsoft, Apple, Mott Macdonald, top 100 Law Firms. Many people working at these places have clever kids at both Hills Rd and the oversubscribed indies in the area.

They live in a town where Oxbridge is not a mystical unknown being and therefore they are not put off applying and unsurprisingly get offers.

Also What Titchy says ^^^

titchy I've already gone through the uni process and come out the other end with my kids thank god. But honestly speaking if my kids were fortunate to have gone to Peter Symonds school like my friends kids. I would have had a much easier life me and my kids. I could have trusted and leave everything to the schools capable hands when it came to uni app and A levels. Let them bring the best out of them. The process would have gone so much smoother hassle and grief free. Instead we got the uni app from hell. The who to find as a teacher reference when all the teachers that had taught her had left. Music teacher having to teach her history A2 level. Then teaches them the wrong syllabus. Not great when dd didnt get a contextual offer like some of her friends did who applied to other uni's. Hers was still A*AA. Not having anyone able to teach Step papers. Oxford TSA ha ha nope, hope in hell getting any support for that one.

Yep every kid who is capable can go to a good uni. Like you say. Its wether sometimes you can stick it out to the end with the crap you will have to endure if you go to a bog standard comp. Some do give up and its not through fault of their own. The school lets them down. My dd is one of the lucky ones. She got there in the end but the process has been a long winded one. She didnt get to Oxford but went to a good London uni instead. I did a extra job in order to help with her living cost. But it has been well worth it.

In ref to the question at me. Both. I think there is trouble further down the line re funding uni overall. I certainly will want my dc to be positive that uni is for them and that it will be worth it.If they can get their degrees funded in some way I’d steer them that way now. Yes you don’t pay back the loans until £21k. I don’t want want my dc earning under that forever. One day they’ll have families and want a house. Paying back 9% of income would have been an issue for us over the years.

Also from what I’ve heard the threshold for family finances for students to get living expense loanisn’t high. Some simply wont be able to afford to fund their dc, I know several worrying about this.

We are pro uni or have been until we got nearer and current day reality began to bite.I think kids without uni pushing parents would look at Oxbridge and find it scarier, worry about passing end of year exams and feel they could be at greater risk of drop out than at other unis. They may find the whole Oxbridge thing an added risk and worry about being happy. I also think across all unis such kids will want to know their degrees will be worth it, it needs to be when you’re paying for it long term and your family is going to struggle to keep you there.

So it’s a mixed answer.