Elitism at Oxford

[piso]

I thought I would post this, not to put people off, but rather to make them aware that Oxford isn't the bastion of egalitarianism that it claims to now be.

My Dd is in her first year at a well known Oxford college. It is an old prestigious one, that has a reputation for being particular pro state school.

In her year group, there is a clear clique of London schoolers, think St Pauls and Westminster. They tend to bother with one another only. "Do you have a place in London?" "I'm from London, smugly the middle bit" "Oh you're so South Ken"

Then there are the old Eton boys, Radley boys etc who seem to also stick to one another.

Private dining societies are still a big thing in Oxford. Whilst apparently they are open to non private school kids, you have to be invited and considered suitable. Ergo, those who come from certain families, went to certain schools.

Favourite activities are skiing and horses. Where are you going skiing this vac? Oh you don't ski? "Our family have known each other forever, we always ski together at Klosters"

DD's neighbour for example is a third generation Oxonian. She proudly caresses her signet ring when talking down to others. She said in freshers week that she'd only consider dating someone from Eton, or Harrow if she had to as she wants a husband like her dad. This girl didn't even get the entry requirements for her course, but after some negotiation got in.

My point being, far from reverse snobbery, is that there still is clearly a large group of hugely entitled people at Oxford. Being born wealthy is certainly none of their faults (nor is it a problem!). DH is from the boarding school type of family, but there seems to be a high preponderance of rich, London type who are keen on being exclusionary.

Never have I been asked in a snobbish way where I went to school, but dd has numerous times, and not in an interested way; a way to see if you are suitable for friendship.

Some friendship groups at her college this year were very much decided based on appropriate background. You get a tick if you're from London. A tick if you went to a select few schools. A tick if your parents know of one another. Another tick if you have a lodge somewhere too.

Just no Maria don't flog it. I guess since your DS wasn't an undergrad he may not see how different the two experiences are.

You might boak but male postgrads are at the female attention

He goes to Cambridge nearly every weekend for a few hours to see his friends from last year who are still undergrads so he’s clearly fairly integrated!

Perhaps the ones who are haven't had any prior attention whatever? The only reasonable explanation I can think of.

Poor old horse Maria.

And now I'm off to garden to stave off any more little boaks :)

DSS1 is not exactly lacking female attention but his opinion was that Cambridge females are extremely ambitious in the husband department. Ruthless

Oh Marianovella - I shall have to ask Ds but ( and as I said earlier - there are about 12000 ) Oxford undergrads . They go on to do many things. I cannot say - but in Ds's experience his female friends were not targeting post grads. How can I say - I can't , really. 2 friends of his have post grad boyfriends but they knew each other when u/g. Oh I don't know .

Lovely that Oxford gives ( obviously limited ) accommodation for married / couples postgraduates. Ds went for dinner recently to one ( both friends as u/g) The woman had not set her cap at the chap because Oxford. It just fell out that way.

I’m sort of with Maria here. Is it the subject? Different University but DS knew post grads from his first year. I remember him talking about a particularly high flying German very early on. UGs and PGs went to public and voluntary lectures together, recruitment events (often a city economist giving his take on current events) and joined the same societies and played the same sports. Someone who was UG when DS was Masters will be going to the same University for a PhD and DS is fielding questions about accommodation etc. Ditto he got a lot of advice when he was third year from Masters students who had been through the application processes he was considering.

Indeed I remember from my own UG days having courses that were open to both PGs and third year UGs. (I think DS had the same, with a slightly lower pass mark for UGs.) Plus third year had been around longer and knew the lecturers better, so in a way had more status than one year Masters students.

I don’t understand why you would not mix.

Yes, in fact when I think back, when DSS1 was at Bristol he had friends doing Masters degrees in other universities- Cambridge, LSE etc - and he saw them a lot. And DSS2 at UCL most definitely had friends doing both undergraduate and postgraduate degrees in different London universities and at Oxbridge. Though they certainly weren’t all Economists, they were mostly looking long term at careers in finance/economics/consulting and their clubs and societies were focused on that.

At Cambridge there is most definitely a market for a French Banker Boyfriend , prepared to keep ambitious but probably impecunious female Arts graduates in the style to which they are accustomed. Hence endless invitations to formals in other colleges. The mating rituals are well established.

Who defines 'elite'?
There is an estate which serves DD's old school. There are families who have lived there for generations. They all know each other. They all worked in the same large factory until it closed down because it couldn't compete. They all support the same football team. If the DC do go to University, they tend to daily-commute to one of the nearby, newer ones. I don't see a lot of difference between that and the people who OP was describing: it seems quite closed-minded and tribal.

Please tell me you’re being deliberately facetious.

Some of the posts on here are downright unpleasant. Dismissing the OP's daughter's experience just because it didn't happen to them shows complete lack of understanding. It clearly is happening to her DD, so please stop telling her that she is making it up

You get hooray Henrys in all walks of life. My friend's DS was rebuffed in a bar in Newcastle when he offered to play a game of pool against a rather posh sounding chap. Posh chap and his friends just laughed at the young man's Barnsley accent and turned their backs on him.

At Cambridge there is most definitely a market for a French Banker Boyfriend

WTF am I reading?

Indeed, TapasForTwo. The snobbery - indeed contempt - among some social groups desperate to retain (sometimes imaginary) privileges and only to mix with people they perceive to be their social equals or superiors is astonishing.

Dickybow321 - yes, female undergraduate can be mercenary. Why are we surprised in this cut throat competitive environment?

So back to the OP in a sort of way.

DS did not notice much of a ‘market’ for English ex-public schoolboy PGs. Despite a generation of international students who had refined their English reading Harry Potter. Maybe it’s the accent...

I appear to have stepped back into the 1950s!

DSS1 said Bristol girls weren’t mercenary like Cambridge girls but that, to be fair to the Cambridge girls, the whole “invite target male to formal” ritual did very much facilitate their marketing pitch. Bristol doesn’t offer anything remotely comparable to allow girls to make a first move!

Well - those who target those who they think will be a "good" boyfriend / husband - let them get on with it. I have to say ( and I have said it before ) Ds's friends were from a great many schools / backgrounds. They just mixed and were fine. Indeed DS who was at a well known independent school , always said - chat first - there are so many reasons you may not like me or you do like me , let's get that ( school) out of the way early doors because there are so many reasons you may dislike me , school is a rubbish one.

Just quickly - my ( vicarious ) experience is that once at university , which school you went to pretty much doesn't matter in making friends - Ok the odd joke but seriously it doesn't matter. There will be cliques but by and large it really isn't a thing for most nice people. Well enough people to make good friends.

My husband is an Oxbridge tutor and part of the annual interview team for a hard science subject. They only pay attention to scores and the interview. In the interview they are looking for students who can be taught but don’t necessarily have all the answers. They must show an ability to solve problems and take instruction. Arrogance will get you know where as far as they are concerned, and they are chuffed to invite students from state and comprehensive schools.

but his opinion was that Cambridge females are extremely ambitious in the husband department

Good grief, you're really doubling down on the crass sexist stereotypes.

Same for my DSS1, Basilisk - his friends are from all sorts of backgrounds. That doesn’t mean he can’t spot the snobs and trophy hunters a mile off and give them a good run for their money ;)

Good grief, you're really doubling down on the crass sexist stereotypes.

DSS1 is no fool. He knows that there are plenty of women at Cambridge (and indeed in other universities) who are insecure about their future financial prospects. Just as snobs who profess contempt for other social groups are really just insecure about their own social position and so look for safety in numbers and scapegoat those that might threaten them...

Well for the avoidance of doubt I do not believe Ds has ever been targeted as marriage material ( probably because we do not have enough money ) I would like to think it is because he is getting on with his stuff & therefore just chooses friends ( in which I include girl friends etc ) as to how well he gets on with them.

But this is Oxford not Cambridge @ErrolTheDagon - I am joking here - you know I am - But none of Ds's friends have ended up with girl friends or boy friends because "money" "prospects" - perhaps he was mixing in the wrong circles

I do have a Silver cup from great great Grandad if anyone wishes to trophy hunt my son. It is for bowling.

Same way it was in Durham in the late 90s - one thing I realised fairly early on was that it FELT more like it than it actually was... the Rah Twit brigade were just louder and more obnoxious and so more obviously visible than the normal, quieter people who came from a more varied social background. I had a few situations where the class prejudice came out really thickly against me - but most of the time I just ignored it and carried on doing what I wanted to be doing regardless.

Incidentally I'm from a comprehensive school background, grew up in one of the most deprived postcodes in the UK, am from the north of England - and my closest friends at uni ended up being some who went to very high profile schools - but were decent people who really didn't give a shit about who you knew or the size of your wallet as long as you were a decent person in return.

Gave me a lot of confidence not to be swayed by a confident swagger and posh accent though in future life.