Oxbridge 2020

[GinWorksForMe]

Is it too early for an Oxbridge 2020 thread? I'm feeling in need of some hand holding through this process...

DS1 is going to apply to Cambridge for Maths. Doesn't know yet whether to name a college or put in an open application, so any tips gratefully received. We have visited two (very different) colleges and been to a Maths Open Day. It's unlikely we're going to have the opportunity to visit many more colleges as their open days seem to be on Saturdays and DS1 has a paid job Saturdays and Sundays.

Anyone else applying for Oxbridge for 2020 entry and want to share the journey?

I'm a bit confused about exactly what the PPH are. Do they take people for all subjects, or just a few?

It's like the Masons though. HATs, CATs, BMATs, Supra Curricular, PPHs could be code words for a secret society and you don't know what you don't know. I can easily see why so many will shrug their shoulders and think it's pointless even trying to get to interview if their ordinary school or college only has the occasional application and they don't know how the system works. It is thoroughly intimidating for your average 17 year old.

Kilash if it's any consolation preparing for the STEP exams tends to make A level maths feel very straight forward.

I won't lie, results day is a bit horrid. If it's not changed, they get the results of STEP at midnight of the day it becomes results day iyswim. I know of people who didn't make their offer. They are very happy at their second place and have different but still superb opportunities to those at Cambridge. It does work out.

No just for certain humanities subjects a drinkofwater.

The timeline on the website is very easy to follow. Although our school sends students to Oxbridge regularly my DC had to make sure they applied for eg the LNAT etc on time - no-one was there mollycoddling them along. DD4 won't get any interview practice either, since the school doesn't teach the subject (even if it's a subject such as History, the students get a single practice interview only after they get an interview invite. And no help whatsoever with aptitude tests).

All aptitude test acronyms end with AT and each course description on the Oxford website explains which test is required and what its acronym is.

PPHs aren't mainstream and are of very marginal importance. The Oxford e-mail asking if you would be ok with being considered for one explained what they were fully - no need for prior knowledge. I don't think my DC had ever been conscious of a PPH until the e-mail came.

There really isn't much mystery - the Oxford website is excellent.

With due respect, you are a supportive parent with numerous children who have attended super selective schools who have been through the system. A 17 year old from a Cornish comp or North Wales 6th form who is from the first generation to consider applying and who does not have parents who know how the system works will find it baffling. A trip to Cambridge for a masterclass would involve a 6 hour drive each way. The out reach visit may take place at a 6th form an hour away. They are relying on doing the research themself, when they don't know what they need to research. They don't know which colleges are state school friendly and which are state school unfriendly and they don't know that there are websites which tell them such things. They assume that all state schools are equal, because they have never heard of a super selective or have encountered the grammar system, so they don't realise that even those stats don't reflect their world. They don't know that schemes like UNIQ exist until after the deadline, because their 6th form didn't start pushing university applications (let alone dreams of Oxbridge) until after their year 12 exams.

Okbobble - I don’t want to say where she is now as it’s probably a bit disclosing . She just really fell in love with her first choice college on the Open Day: loved the architecture, the students she met, the tutors and the general vibe. (It personally wouldn’t have been my choice but it wasn’t me applying!) She doesn’t actively dislike her current college but it just isn’t where she wanted to be. She was unfortunate that there were a lot more applicants than normal to her first choice college and loads were pooled out to other colleges after interview. I wish Oxford would allow a second choice college option as friends on her course were pooled to other colleges she would have preferred and vice versa.

Stickerrocks - I reckon people think there's rather more mystique than really exists, which doesn't help.

And if a middle aged mother can find info on the net, I honestly think a bright sixth former can. True enough, it's easier if you're told where to look but I'm not sure successful Oxbridge applicants will be the ones who need easy...

Re statistics on which colleges give more or fewer offers to state school kids, that (and much more!) is available for Cambridge -
This page has links to different years data, and a cute interactive graph generator
https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/statistics

Specific data for the 2017 cycle here
https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/ugadmissionssstatistics20177cycle_4.pdf

• see p 23 for the college maintained:independent ratios.

I expect someone else can provide links to similar for oxford.

@ErroltheDragon "The dates etc are not in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of The Leopard".' ."

That made me laugh but seriously , DS ( independent school) did have those teachers who knew the dates. If not - they are all there on the ( in his case Oxford ) website - and I think it is this - please someone say if I have it wrong

www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/applying-to-oxford/admissions-timeline

So , this does not give stats re State vs Independent but I think it gives a guide as to how to go through the steps to apply. I would say that whenever my son phoned the admissions dept. they were fantastic.

Ds got through 3 years and never mauled by a leopard during the whole thing. We were pleased.

Thanks for taking the time to post the links, but you're missing my point. A 17 year old from the backgrounds I have described shouldn't have to waste so much time on having to research the information to fight their way through the system and produce an application tailored to Oxbridge requirements. For years, bright children in ordinary state schools are told to apply to be a prefect in year 10 "as it will look great on your UCAS Form IF you apply", do D of E, join the football team etc. They are not told that they need to have started all the Supra Curricular stuff months ago and kept a record of what they have done or that Oxbridge don't care about all the extra stuff they have been told to do to boost their opportunities. Instead, they should have been practising sample papers for a BMAT, applying for UNIQ & Sutton Trust summer schools in January of year 12 and telling their parents not to book their usual October half term break. That is why the task looks so unachievable if you don't know how to play the system because you're not in a school in an RG/Oxbridge bubble, where an application to ANY university is the ultimate goal, not RG or Oxbridge.

Stickerrocks makes an interesting point. Yes the Oxbridge system can be navigated by a bright motivated 17 yr old, but there is no doubt that there are hurdles to an Oxbridge application which you don't get to apply to most other universities. Does that deter some applicants - i would assume yes, but it would be possible to find out! I wonder if Oxbridge have researched this - I haven't read about it is so, but they may have done.

Some of the hurdles are information hurdles but the others can be greater, I think - requirement to take aptitude tests, interviewing which in Oxford's case can last for several days and in both cases involves long journeys for many potential applicants. (Whether this process is strictly necessary, and results in Oxbridge getting more able students overall than, say, Imperial, LSE etc (I know they interview and test for some courses!) is a separate question. I don't know the answer!)

None of those are impossible and a bright 17 yr old can manage, but as I say I think it is an interesting question whether they deter some applicants. The simple answer is to say "well we don't want people who aren't prepared to put in that extra effort". That is one approach but it may not achieve the wider participation which is currently being sought.

In which case I apologise @stickerrocks & I see your point.

I don't know the answer other than there are those ( from Oxbridge & other universities ) - not me - but there are those who are involved in outreach programmes.

For those ( pupils) who do have the idea then they can access a good amount of very useful information on the various websites & if they have a desire to go to some good university then I am not sure at the stage they want to go to any university they couldn't look up their aspirational ones - take point re Oxbridge & I think medicine deadline Oct rather than Jan. But this is Summer before application.

I do agree with you that stuff like DoE , being a prefect etc should be done for its own sake - not because it looks good on a UCAS form - and for many universities this is just fluff and does not count. If these are encouraged unthinkingly by the schools - well ...... yes I see your point.

That said - if a pupil wants to say , go to Oxford to do history , there will be a presumption that that pupil has an actual demonstrable interest in history. For which probably reading will be pretty much it & if they have not naturally taken an interest , my guess is a bit of cramming over the summer holidays won't cut it. Other subjects will be different in terms of EC things on PS.

The thing I posted is more about the mechanics of making sure applications etc are put in on time , which is in many ways the easy part but but but I get your point that if you don't know it is a problem , you don't know how to address it.

There are so many people who try to do outreach work and explain these things. If the school doesn't know the basic timetable , not perfect ( understatement) - they should. I have a friend who has a nephew - his parents wouldn't even go to parents' evening , let alone help him with UCAS etc. Which was because they felt intimidated by the whole thing not through lack of caring. She (friend) bumbled her way through it with him ( she was not educated in the UK) - but school + websites & her effort have landed him some nice offers.

I do see why you are frustrated @stickerrocks - not sure there is an easy answer. Sorry my previous post didn't answer your question.

The issue with Oxford and Cambridge websites is that insiders are trying to explain their culture to outsiders. As always happens in such circumstances, insiders are not fully aware of the level of explanation required in order for things to make complete sense to the uninitiated. TBH, the websites have improved dramatically in the past few years and the uninitiated are far better able to navigate the applications system. But the truth is it remains difficult. I know a really very clever family of five DC who are right at the top of their country’s school system, with one parent a very senior teacher in the second highest ranking school in the country. As a family they are experts at navigating their own education system to their own advantage and they are frightened of nothing. However, the Oxford applications system required a lot of concentration by both parents and the daughter concerned. It’s not intuitive.

I do think that Oxbridge has upped their outreach more recently and there are definitely more courses trying to reach yr10/11s. There is also more publicity each year for those that have got in and do not have the presumed profile. I think it will still take time for it to be generally distributed to all year 11s/6th Formers but they are trying.

I totally get stickerrock's points. I have friends whose kids are at a good 6th forn extoling the virtues of DofE as making them stand out in an Oxbridge application, tried to explain what is needed and been met with but everyone will be expecting DofE too so they have to do it.

If PPHs are to be avoided why would people apply to them or is it not the case its an Oxford offer so better than no Oxford offer. By ticking yes does that increase the chance they will be just "dumped" in one? Interested to know why you might choose one as first choice.

"I don't know the answer"

It is difficult. Thinking radically, what would happen that would be so terrible, if Oxbridge just joined the usual UCAS process, and used GCSE results, school references, personal statement and for post A level candidates, A level results? Bearing in mind that other very high ranking universities do basically that - no special deadline, tests and interviews in some - a few? - subjects but by no means all; and get very able students.

Again, the simple answer is to say 'any 17/18 yr old good enough for Oxbridge should be able to cope with the application process'. But if the goal is wider participation a simpler application process may be one of the means of achieving that. Research may be required to bear this out though!

Highly selective universities the world over use idiosyncratic processes to filter applicants. I don’t think Oxford and Cambridge ought to be at a disadvantage to their competitors.

DofE has become a bit of a nightmare. It eats up a lot of time that could usefully be put to more personal and investigative approaches to adulthood.

MUN is another standardised extra curricular activity that is very time consuming. I’m sure it has value for some students but the opportunity costs need to be evaluated carefully.

I would love to do the research! I work in a post grad educational environment teaching people who have their first degree from Oxbridge, RG, ordinary unis and (in some cases) no uni at all. There is absolutely nothing to distinguish the first two groups, which makes me so tempted to probe their experience of applying. Mind you, I interrogated them about 6th form selection & experience a couple of years ago, so I have a track record!

I always do my most pondering posts late at night or first thing in the morning when I'm staying with my parents and don't have to worry about getting to the station for 7.30 or loading & unloading the dishwasher! Later today I will get back to the reality of DD's study leave, forget justice for all and simply concentrate on persuading her that mathematical mechanics is preferable this evening to working on the mechanics of her serve, with exams later this week.

What's MUN?

Interesting Maria Novella - would it put Oxbridge at a disadvantage? Presumably they must think so, as the current system costs time and money to run. Yes they would have fewer filters, but on the other hand they would probably get a wider range of applicants, who are currently deterred?

It is an interesting question - presumably Oxbridge think that the current system gets them the best candidates but has any research been done to prove that? If the answer is 'how could you ever test that hypothesis' then perhaps the basis for the current system is worth questioning! (Bearing in mind that the test is not only how well the current students do, but whether the rejected students and the non applicant students would have done as well/better.)

Duke of Edinburgh. This puzzles me. If 6th forms advise that it helps with university applications, someone must be telling them this! Yet the view here is that it does not. Is it the case that for some universities it helps and the schools are extrapolating to all?

MUN = model united nations?

With respect Stickerrocks I had an eldest DC who had to trail blaze within the family and with further respect you have no idea, I think, how little advice about the nitty gritty - personal statements, deadlines, written work, aptitude tests etc - was given at our superselective. It's a very usual mistake though, I'll give you that and very usual to work backwards from a family where a number of DC have been successful and go oh it was easy for you. Well, up to a point Lord Copper. And things are changing but then I think that's a national shift not merely at a single school.

No input with coursework at all - the teachers and the DC had to read the guidance on the pdf, no help whatsoever with any aptitude test ever taken and a single interview only by the relevant subject teacher only one of whom had been to Oxbridge (not that the others weren't great teachers - they were).

Yes, Model United Nations.

Let’s face it: it is much easier for schools to run standardised extra and super curricular activities than to mentor students on more individualised paths. I can quite see that DofE and MUN are an awful lot better than either nothing or some halfhearted club. But DofE and MUN are both ubiquitous and time consuming and develop skills that are not necessarily a priority for some degree courses.

One of my nephews did Gold DofE, MUN, played cricket for a national team and did the IB. He ended up on a university course he has not enjoyed at all. I suspect he needed more “free” time to explore what he wanted to do earlier on.

I think that the process of applying to Oxbridge is not particularly complicated but it does require some forward planning (supercurricular work) which a lot of people wouldn’t be aware of. However by far the greatest issue for a lot of applicants is the feeling that you have to be a genius to study there. When your only point of reference of Oxbridge is the stuff you see in the media and watching University Challenge it is easy to understand how a lot of people from ordinary backgrounds would assume it’s not the place for them. My own dc attended a masterclass there recently, which college organised. They were surprised to see that the tutor giving the talk was a bit nervous. That made the people there seem a lot more human and it was very helpful in that respect.