Oxbridge 2020

[GinWorksForMe]

Is it too early for an Oxbridge 2020 thread? I'm feeling in need of some hand holding through this process...

DS1 is going to apply to Cambridge for Maths. Doesn't know yet whether to name a college or put in an open application, so any tips gratefully received. We have visited two (very different) colleges and been to a Maths Open Day. It's unlikely we're going to have the opportunity to visit many more colleges as their open days seem to be on Saturdays and DS1 has a paid job Saturdays and Sundays.

Anyone else applying for Oxbridge for 2020 entry and want to share the journey?

Coleoptera at our school there has historically only ever been a single practice interview per pupil once interview invitations are confirmed and they are not in any way similar to the real thing. No help whatsoever has ever been given for any aptitude test any of my DC has ever taken (three HATs, two LNATs and a BMAT). DD4 will get no help with her CAT (I don't think there's much anyone can actually do to help) and since Classics isn't taught at her school, I think finding any teacher to do even a single mock interview will be difficult. I genuinely think the lack of that kind of input isn't critical.

By which I mean that if DD isn't successful, it won't be down to lack of the sort of support sandy describes her school as giving. The idea of a mock aptitude test in early September suggests a very, very world to normal applicants', but clearly books for the tests have also been suggested, personal statements taken in by early July and a tutor appraisal done and interview practice lined up. It's a well oiled machine - but I guess that's what you pay for and expect as a parent. My expectations are zero on the Oxbridge preparation front, so I'm never disappointed!

Coleoptera I don’t think you can replicate the interviews (and certainly the practise interviews school offered for my boys were nothing like their actual interviews) but I think finding people prepared to chat and challenge their ideas is easier. So for one son I asked a friend whose husband I knew worked at something vaguely similar to ds1 interests and has a reputation as a bit of a maverick to meet with him for coffee. This was someone ds didn’t know but who challenged his ideas and put him on the spot. Both sons also found work experience very good for talking to other adults who they didn’t really know and having thinking challenged.

I think you need to help them move away from the idea that their interviewers where somehow trying to thwart them and accept that these people will probably have behaved like that with all the candidates, and surely must have made some offers. They need to learn to deal with that sort of person, rather than hope the interviewers will change. Luckily they have plenty of time to fit in work experience before the next phase, and for you to put your feelers out in your network for anyone who might be suitable to talk with your sons. Remember you don’t just want nice people.

From my own sons experiences and anecdotes from friends who did or did not get places, being able to think on your feet seemed to be the deciding factor. Those who were brilliant but had very prepared answers didn’t do as well as those who worked with the interviewer and asked questions, made progress, were redirected in their thinking. The interviewers want to decide if they want to teach candidates for 3 years - they want to feel the person is listening and learning from their input.

As a previous poster alluded to I also wonder if the fact your twins have less than stella GCSEs and were then predicted exceptional A levels may have triggered alarm bells that the school were over predicting. Some schools seem more interested in being able to say they had a large number of Oxbridge offers, than if the students would be realistically be able to meet any offer made. Now that your dt have those exceptional A level grades that is one thing that can no longer be held against them.

I have heard people say that only listing Oxford/Cambridge on your application in time for early deadline, and then adding other universities 2-3 weeks later is a way to not let them know you are applying to Oxbridge - but I’ve no idea how true this is, but it might solve the long wait for Durham for example.

Finally I do know of a young man who failed to get an Oxford history offer but was successful with a post A level application to Cambridge.

Good luck to your boys - it has clearly been a stressful year for you all, but their amazing grades will hopefully give them the confidence to move on to whatever comes next.

Your twins did brilliantly coleoptera. Well done to them!

Re interviews, DD had various bits of interview practice: with a teacher (she went to a comp incidentally), a teacher’s friend, and one with a family friend (who also did a mock interview for DH 30 years ago!). I think she’d say that they weren’t directly relevant. Perhaps the best practice they gave her was dealing with an awkward situation. She didn’t feel her interviews went particularly well. In fact the interview with the college that gave her an offer was one of the worst (she had 4). Knowing how diligent she is (not very), how passionate she is about the subject (averagely but not exceptionally) and her A level grades, I’m very much reminded that it is a lottery.

Best of luck to your DSs as they navigate it all over again.

For anyone wanting to know which book has been recommended its 'Think you can think' - no great secret and available on a well known internet site beginning with A. Mock aptitude test is just the opportunity to sit in a classroom in times conditions to do a test. No great shakes and easy enough for anyone to buy/do if they're so inclined.

One thing I have observed about teenagers (which I think relates to all interview situations not just Oxbridge) is that a lot of them just aren't very good at engaging with adults.

We're on holiday at the moment and it's very noticeable how many are very awkward at engaging in conversation with adults in even very relaxed situations (over tennis, learning to sail, in the bar etc). My 3 DC are quite unusual in that they do chat very easily and naturally to anyone. I think this is a really useful skill (which I have gradually acquired over the years but DH still struggles with). I'm not sure how it develops but it's definitely something to nurture. @Coleoptera maybe think about trying to develop that social ease rather than worrying too much about interview technique?

Being able to talk naturally with adults is for sure a benefit (in general, not just for interviews). If theyhave some interest which is mixed age that can be excellent- in DDs case, as it happens, sailing and windsurfing.

I think the point about being able to talk to new adults is a really important one, along with being able his talk about your subject. Ds is a maths hopeful and he had been advised to explain his problem solving out loud as much as possible (this practice is probably very necessary as I guess Mathematicians don't do this very often unless they are teaching) . I agree that work experience is hugely helpful as are any opportunities to speak publicly. I have watched ds blossom since he has had a job in a busy kitchen. Hes moe cobfident, more articulate.

I agree about developing that confidence of talking to people you don't know. It's also learning that there are unspoken "rules" of good conversation, especially for Maths-y types (like me) - that conversation is not just a literal exchange of information.

My Mum likes to remind me of how around age 7, I had a school admissions interview, and one question was "how many children are there in your class?" I answered "I don't know" and later explained to my Mum that's because I didn't know if anyone was away that day - I had literally interpreted it as "how many in attendance today?" and given a literal response. 10 years later, I got a place at Cambridge, and I think it helped that as a family round the dinner table we practised conversation, with my parents "coaching" me to elaborate in my answers, to use a question as a prompt to show that I could think for myself (not the same as the politicians' trick of using the question as simply an opportunity to answer the question they wanted to be asked).

My DS is now looking at uni applications, and I've noticed he tends to have the opposite problem, of having plenty to say, but maybe not getting to the point. I've been encouraging him to practise sometimes giving a one sentence response to a question to indicate the key themes / issues / considerations before diving down one particular rabbit hole!

That made me chuckle Dad because thats exactly the sort of thing ds might say!
I have a US friend whi usex yo ve the Dean of an Ivy League Univetsity and he bow eorks freelance coaching kids for Ivy League and Oxbridge (US kids). I was asking him what he actually does and apart from directing their reading, (he's an English/Classics specialist) he talks to them! Gets them to talk about what they have read what they think etc . Parents apparently pay a fortune for this.
All in all as a pp said, its about the interviewers thinking they have a candidate they can teach.

App is for the awful phone typos!

Kilash - I think you're saying "US friend who used to be... and now works..." - either that or your medication's wearing off.

DS got me to try on him some sample Oxbridge questions in his subject, and got a bit frustrated that I wasn't able to come back with critical responses (hardly surprising given I'm an amateur in his subject not an Oxford don!) But I still think it's worth practising simply saying things out loud - you may have deep thoughts, be able to write brilliant essays, but it is a different skill to fluently string some sentences together orally... .

And you're right that mathmos can be particularly lacking in verbosity. (Especially the ones that end up as Cambridge professors!)

Do the mathmos necessarily have to give their answers verbally or would it be ok if mostly, as the saying goes, they worked it out with a pencil? I mean, why would you translate into English if your common language is more naturally equations, graphs etc?

D3 I remember your spreadsheet skills from The Archers threads. Have you done a similar spreadsheet analysis for UCAS and the options available at each course/college/uni?

Sandy is right, there's no mystery in the recommended reading for the assessments. Most branches of Waterstones have a selection for medics, maths etc and the universities are very open about what's involved. I suppose it's back to getting our DC to check and double check the support available on their websites. After all, having well prepared candidates can only work to their advantage.

@ErrolTheDragon - I have an image of a silent maths interview with scribbled notes being passed between interviewer and interviewee. It's not as preposterous as it sounds, my DFIL did maths at Cambridge and had would have loved that approach! He quite often sits in a corner at family gatherings and picks up a book up read if the conversation isn't if interest to him.

Dad thanks for translation!
I have heard from friends whose dc applied for Maths that candidates are given a problem sheet before the interview, then asked to explain their reasoning of why they chose a particular method to solve the problem. So I'm assuming they need to be able to articulate something of their thinking. My ds is also applying to Imperial, who also interview so working on the social skills is pretty important.

Sandy again, I recognise that behaviour! Do you think all mathmo's are like this? When stressed ds's default is to put his nose in a book - he always goes to social things armed!

being able to think on your feet seemed to be the deciding factor.
This commonly held view can be an overstatement as it does depend on the interviewers and their style whether the questions asked are directed into the best sort of Oxbridge interview ie debate or making connections or problem solving. In some cases the interviewers can frame questions into something similar to a marking scheme where key points in the answers elicit a tick
There are even some questions for example in STEM subjects that a student will either know or not. Even if it is not overtly admitted, the leeway for not knowing the answer to these ‘straightforward’ questions will depend on what is expected from educational background.

I have heard from friends whose dc applied for Maths that candidates are given a problem sheet before the interview, then asked to explain their reasoning of why they chose a particular method to solve the problem.

I would also think that a key aspect of this is to see if a student can move away from the school level maths of: you solve this problem this way. To the University level of: you can solve this problem is several different ways eg. Group theory, geometry or algebra or...

In some cases it may be something they don't exactly know but should have an idea how to work out or estimate. This probably pertains to STEM subjects.

@Hoghgyni

Rumbled! Actually, when my DS was looking at Oxford admission statistics for his subject the other week, I did put them in a spreadsheet so we could analyse trends, compare colleges etc. Not sure how much it told us in the end, but I was having fun...

I think that although my Dd was gifted with her dads maths genes she thankfully inherited my communication skills and emotional intelligence. My dh cheerfully admits he hasn’t got a clue and leaves any emotional teenage angst to me! Horses for courses I suppose.

Alittlewornout - your DH should take it from a fellow mathmo that you can improve your emotional intelligence.

In fact, I found you can use a few simple axioms to help approach emotional situations. Unfortunately, while I've found Axiom 1 is "You can work out how others feel by considering how you would feel in that situation", I've found Axiom 2 is "Different people react differently to the same situation" , so the intellectual puzzle can be working out the interaction of these axioms.

I haven't discovered Axiom 3 yet but I feel like being on MN is helping me towards it...

@goodbyestranger, out of curiosity, is it rude to ask why your DD moved to an Oxford application from Cambridge as was the case at the start of this thread? There seems to be some fluidity in DD’s friends plans in the same direction as the summer has progressed which is interesting. Quite understand if you prefer not to say.

Not in the least rude hobbema but in fact DD4 has never been thinking of Cambridge, at least not since the Oxbridge Classics day in March where both unis explained their courses. I expect I did one of my many, many typos or something! (If you copy where I seemed to have said Cambridge I can see what I did).