Maths at Oxford or Cambridge

[AChickenCalledKorma]

DD1 is in year 12 and planning to apply to Oxford or Cambridge to study Maths in 2020. She is a highly gifted mathematician and this is a realistic proposition for her.

Obviously she can only apply to one of them. I wondered if there is anyone on here who can comment on differences between the Oxford and Cambridge Maths courses and what they are looking for? She's doing her own research, including Maths-specific open days. But if there are people on here who are familiar with the courses, it would be great to hear any insights.

(And yes, we all know that she may not get in, and it's not the be-all and end-all, so I'm not inviting for a debate about any of that!)

Actuarial Science is a massive no - she is scornful about statistics. Pure maths and theoretical physics are where her heart lies.

Now this made me smile - as I said in my earlier post, I was into physics and then really grew to love the pure side. Stats at Cambridge was a closed book to me and of no appeal.

But since then, stats - particularly all the lovely "pure" probability theory - has grown on me.

Punchline: I've been an actuary for twenty years now.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/AMA/3419589-Im-an-actuary

Ooh, @Teentimestwo, your experience almost a carbon copy of mine including the gap year, except I did two years of Maths and then switched to part II in Management Studies. Much more up my street in the end!

I'm a firm believer in the advice given here about going to open days and finding the right fit. I also chose between places that went for STEP over interview as thought I'd do better at that. But...even with a 1 and 2 on the STEP papers it was still bloody hard.

And of the 9 in my college in my year doing Maths - I was decidedly mediocre. I still have memories of supervisions which felt like in two parts - the remedial part of the session for me, and the other half for my supervision partner who went off to do a phd and became an academic, where I had absolutely no idea what was going on.

Does that help choosing between Oxford and Cambridge? No - but I don't think you really know how 'good' (or otherwise - and it's all relative) you are till you get there. And if you're no longer the big fish, finding it all pretty straightforward, that's a fair mental adjustment ime.

I can't remember the exact numbers, but when I looked at this the proportion of applicants who got places was roughly the same between Oxford and Cambridge, the difference is that Cambridge gives a lot more offers. I'll try and dig the stats out.

Back in the mists of prehistory when I were a nipper, the received wisdom was Cambridge was out in front for applied maths (Hawking etc., DAMTP), while Oxford was probably your top pick for pure maths. Is that still the case, Pallando?

the difference is that Cambridge gives a lot more offers.
Or put another way. Oxford puts you out of your misery earlier, at Christmas. Cambridge keeps you hanging on, doing extra revision, doing extra exam papers in the summer when all your mates have finished and are off going to festivals or exploring the world ... and then gives you the bad news in August, which means that you have to do a huge mental U-turn and organise accommodation in a hurry at your already-full insurance.

Cambs

At Oxbridge, for a course like Maths, how does the application process go in terms of order? Do they do the STEP test first, or do they do the Step if they've had an interview?

STEP is taken about the same time as A levels, so the university would make a conditional offer (usually after interview for these types of very selective courses) based on both A levels and reaching a certain level in specified STEP papers

Results day for both Alevels and STEP papers this year is 15 August

Pure maths and theoretical physics are where her heart lies.
Just to warn you that this doesn't necessarily stay the same.
I went up to Oxford loving pure maths and never having found any a problem even at step level and not really liking mechanics at all, and struggled with it all through the 6th form.
Very quickly I found I was struggling at the pure side, but I couldn't see why other people were complaining about the mechanics. I truly didn't find it any harder than A-level, couldn't see that it was anything but obvious.

I did however find that the course at Oxford is very pure based. I think for finals we had 9 exams, 4 were compulsory- all of those were pure. Of the options we could choose from: 1 was statistics which I'd never done, 1.5 were mechanics, 1 was quantum/relativity (which I was warned was very difficult) and all the others were pure. So you had to do at least 5 pure, and in my case as I didn't do statistics, had to do 6.I got a high 2.1 but that was entirely because I scored almost full marks in the 1.5 mechanics exams. If I'd been able to do 3 mechanics I'd have probably been on for a first.

Plus Oxford punts from the correct end.

At Oxbridge, for a course like Maths, how does the application process go in terms of order?
The order is very different.
Oxford has its own exam in the Michaelmas term. Do well enough in this and you are invited to interview. You are accepted/rejected around Christmastime. Do well enough in your A Levels (pretty much a given) and you are in.
Cambridge invites a lot of applicants to interview (I've heard 70% of applicants but this is hearsay. I can't find the stats). Of those, about half get given an offer, again at Xmastime. The offer is based on A Levels and STEP (taken at same time). About half (again, hearsay) fail to get their STEP grade (they get the A Level grades but that effectively carries no weight). So HALF the mathematicians who thought they were going to Cambridge fall at the last hurdle. I don't think any other Camb subject does this.
In summary, I believe a similar number apply and a similar number start the course but the timings (and therefore numbers involved) of dropouts - Xmas or August - is very different between the two.

@senua thanks for that.
How on earth they find the time to interview so many baffles me!

How on earth they find the time to interview so many baffles me!
I hadn't thought of that angle. So not only are they incredibly cruel to the students but they also waste their own time. IMO the Cambridge system really needs an overhaul (as if they care what I think! )

Plus Oxford punts from the correct end.

Arguable, but they clearly can't row as fast as Cambridge.

@senua you'd have thought such a university would have realised the waste of time eh? Maybe they just like meeting different people

Maybe they just like meeting different people
Mathmos socialising? Does not compute!

Ah, but we mathmos like meeting other mathmos for a geek-together. It's just the rest of you that we barely tolerate.

Although Cambridge may interview more applicants than Oxford, the interviews themselves take place over only one day I believe. By contrast, everyone invited to interview at Oxford stays in college for four nights and is interviewed over three days. The mathematicians are guaranteed at least two interviews in their first choice college and another interview in a different college for moderation purposes.

DS actually ended up having five interviews over the three days. Each interview had two different people in attendance, so 10 members of staff had assessed him by the end. It is a very time-consuming and gruelling process, but it does mean that the colleges get a really good look at all the shortlisted applicants. They then make offers to around a third of those shortlisted (which are themselves around a third of those who sat the MAT exam.)

Plus Oxford punts from the correct end.

Hmm - exactly how much weight should I be placing on the embarrassment factor involved in one's father insisting on punting from the Cambridge end every time he visits Oxford? Because that will undoubtedly happen if she picks Oxford and makes it through the process .

Having tried both techniques, I am of the opinion that while the Oxford end feels safer (you're in the boat and lower down), the Cambridge end actually gives you better control over the direction (because you're higher up, can get closer to the edge, and exert more leverage). This is despite favouring Oxford in most things . (Tries to draw a veil over this weekend's boat race).

Cambridge maths interviews seem to consist of 'here are some problems, do them while we guide you for any tricky bits', with some colleges doing a pretest just before the interview.

DD is younger but vaguely thinking about maths at Cambridge and she found this and pointed out the stats on p13 are odd re male / female in maths:

www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/ug_admissions_statistics_2017_cycle_4.pdf

Girls have more chance of being offered a place than boys but acceptances are much lower for girls - not sure if that means girls aren't getting the grades or girls are turning offers down. State school percentage is higher than other subjects.

DadDadDad One lecturer told us we shouldn't even speak to engineers in the common room as they're so lowly. Engineers are like lemming-both are woolly and jump to unfortunate conclusions.

Exactly how much weight should I be placing on the embarrassment factor involved in one's father insisting on punting from the Cambridge end every time he visits Oxford?
I believe the correct etiquette if you meet someone punting from the incorrect end is to shout "Tab" and push them in the river. As it's far slipperier on the Cambridge end this should be easy to do. As long as he doesn't mind this then it's no problem.
Of course we do forgive the Fen Polytechnic a lot.

That is interesting Penguin, it would be good to see that figure broken down further. I know one female who turned down Cambridge in a STEM subject because she had the perception that she wasn't clever enough to enjoy her time there. She was fully up to the task, but she didn't believe it.

This might be of interest, though the data is from a few years ago.

‘The percentage of offers made is also broadly in line with the percentage who apply; the issue is that acceptances are lower [for women]. The explanation for this drop is that almost all offers are conditional on grades in STEP (Sixth Term Examination Papers, taken in late June), and more female applicants fail to meet their offer by achieving lower grades in STEP.’

www.maths.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.maths.cam.ac.uk/files/pre2014/womeninmaths/Athena_Swan_application_Nov2013.pdf

Thanks for that Out I wondered what it was. The overall percentage of girls on the course is very low, its the kind of percentage would have expected 30 years ago not currently.