Maths at Oxford or Cambridge

[AChickenCalledKorma]

DD1 is in year 12 and planning to apply to Oxford or Cambridge to study Maths in 2020. She is a highly gifted mathematician and this is a realistic proposition for her.

Obviously she can only apply to one of them. I wondered if there is anyone on here who can comment on differences between the Oxford and Cambridge Maths courses and what they are looking for? She's doing her own research, including Maths-specific open days. But if there are people on here who are familiar with the courses, it would be great to hear any insights.

(And yes, we all know that she may not get in, and it's not the be-all and end-all, so I'm not inviting for a debate about any of that!)

DeRigueur Why was I mediocre at Cambridge compared with school?

Well, all of this probably didn't help:

• I took a year out and is now not recommended for maths, so was very 'rusty' when I started (it took the best part of a term to re-learn how to focus)
• I had never learned how to learn maths, it always came too easily
• school was selective but small year group (only 5 did double maths at A level)
• I had never even heard of Maths Olympiad which I believe was running at the time, so maybe had never really been stretched

But mainly:

• there were loads of people who were just more able than I was

re What type of maths.

Cambridge maths was (is) very broad in the first couple of years, a mixture of Pure & Applied, no choice in the courses.
I nearly failed the 2nd year (passed I think only due to the Computation Maths course).
In the final year I picked courses that didn't really build on the previous years (e.g. Communication theory, mathematical economics, stochastic processes, coding theory) that were more to my liking, and I did OK.

My friend had 2 sons do Maths at Cambridge recently. I think it’s true to say they were A level standard when everyone else was doing GCSEs. They didn’t struggle at Cambridge and one is now doing his PhD in maths. They come from a maths family. My DD has a friend whose profile was the same and she went to Imperial.

To be honest, this is the standard of the competition. The very best applicants apply. I would consider what the school is like. Can they coach STEP or MAT? Do they have any experience of sending mathematicians to Cambridge or Oxford? Being the best in the year isn’t necessarily good enough. I would see how things develop next year regarding which subject and keep his options open.

DeRigeur it's not a case of different sorts of maths, just the "big fish in a small pond Vs medium sized fish in a big pond" effect. It is absolutely standard to go from being, say, the best pupil your school has seen in the last five years to middle of the pack at Oxbridge. Remember they're probably recruiting at somewhere near the 0.1 to 0.05 percentile of the population level, so (for an average sized, genuinely comprehensive intake) that would be one child in the entire school, ie one every five to seven years.

dd does maths at Cambridge so I can offer an insight into there. She's really glad she chose there. It's pretty intense, but manageable. She has friends at Warwick and the work at Cambridge is definitely, without a doubt harder.

Don't be frightened by STEP, there is plenty of support out there including a program for State school kids. I was quite scared about it, but it really came together and it provided a really good insight into university maths.

For the first year they all do 4 courses a term, 2 lectures each day including Saturdays, so each course has 3 lectures a week. There are also a small number of non examinable courses and of course they can sit in any other lectures they like as long as they don't clash. They also get what works out as two supervisions a week. For those they have to complete a supervision (problem) sheet in advance.

Easter term is different in that they get lectures for the first 4 weeks that count for the second year. They also get to do a technically optional computing course then. After the 4 weeks they get exams on the first two terms worth of work (dd is currently upstairs revising!)

The first year is split roughly half and half of pure/applied maths. The second year they get a little more choice and this increases for third and the optional fourth year, so by the fourth year they can if they like end up more as theoretical physicists or pure mathematicians etc depending on their leaning.

I'm really happy to answer questions here or by PM, especially if you want to know more about what it's like to be a female on the course.

The main reason for choosing one over the other is usually the entrance procedures. Oxford Maths uses MAT pre-interview plus interview to select, but their offers are relatively straightforward to achieve.
This is the important difference.
Cambridge Maths interviews almost all applicants but over-offers and uses STEP (taken with A levels) to select i.e. the Cambridge offers are not easy to achieve, and many with Cambridge offers will end up at insurances such as Warwick, Imperial, Durham.
Beware using another STEP-er as a Cambridge insurance, you could end up missing both!!

Our friends son had an offer for Maths at Cambridge, got 4 Astars but missed the STEP offer.
This happened to DS. His Cambridge offer was 3A plus STEP II and III, and his Warwick offer was also 3A plus STEP I.
He also got 4A* but missed the STEP and went to Warwick (where he was in good company among other Cambridge near misses).
The problem with STEP is that it's taken after A levels whereas the Oxford entrance test is taken before the offer is made. If you get an offer for Oxford and you are a maths whizz you can comfortably assume you will be going there. No true of Cambridge where as other posters have said they over offer because many fail the STEP.

He was, as someone said the best his school had ever had at maths but they had no history of sending students to Cambridge. In hindsight he wished he had applied to Oxford but at 17 he wanted to go to the best and Cambridge has always had the reputation of being supreme at maths.

Kitten It doesn't sound like it has changed much in 30 years. Including the Saturday lectures. NB, for clarity, by Easter Term I think you mean what is usually referred to as Summer Term by schools.

oh yes,

I don't think it has changed much at all to be honest! Certainly not in the basic structure.

I'd definitely recommend working their way through the foundation modules of maths.org/step/assignments this coming term in Year 12 and through the summer hols . It would benefit MAT students too and give them a flavour of what STEP is all about.

Thank you all for the feedback and apologies for the de-rail OP.

DS is very "active" on the out of school maths challenges and has already read most of the A Level Maths and Further Maths revision guides (he asked for them for Christmas Presents ).

His maths teacher actually had to ask him to "scale back" as he was jumping too far ahead and was worried he'd miss out re:GCSE because he would "over complicate" the maths needed for his exams and thus lose marks.

Tbh it's a bit of a parenting nightmare.

We want to support and encourage, but frankly our out of our depth.

My experience of Cambridge is 25 years out of date and in the Arts (I did UCAS, then interview, then offer, which I just missed out on and went to my 2nd Choice Uni).

Teen thanks for your feedback. He doesn't want to take a gap year. It's hard for me to qualify how "easy" maths comes to him but at a guess he finds a lot simple to grasp but I know he's had to "research" some of the topics he didn't understand wrt books he's asked for (well above his age level) so I suspect he's not adverse to, or a stranger to "learning graft" as I call it.

He's at a state school. Well regarded with good results, thus I absolutely get the big fish/small pond analogy. Truth is there's nearly always someone "better". However he and his friend seem to more than hold their own at national maths events.

I'll pm you DeRigeur

This is great - thanks for all the insights. In terms of her ability, she is at a bog standard non-selective comprehensive and got straight grade 9s at GCSE plus top grade at FSMQ additional maths. She's finding Further Maths A Level quite straightforward and currently doing STEP papers for fun because she enjoys the challenge. These are the things that make me feel she has the right mindset. But I went to Cambridge myself and completely recognise the "big fish in a small pond" issue and that their maths course is a whole different world of difficulty.

I hadn't grasped that the Oxford MAT was before interview. She probably does know that. I agree it's an important thing to consider. Her Maths teacher has already confessed that he had an offer to Cambridge but missed the STEP requirements which must be absolutely gutting.

I'm trying hard not to bias her towards Cambridge. She went to the "Futher Maths, What's Next" event at Oxford and came back absolutely fired up. So it may well be that she heads towards Oxford. But she's going to the Cambridge Maths open day in a few weeks to suss it out.

Actuarial Science is a massive no - she is scornful about statistics. Pure maths and theoretical physics are where her heart lies. But both courses offer a route along those lines.

Any insights welcome Kitten - thank you.

Korma, if your dd is enjoying STEP papers, then there's absolutely no reason for her not to go for Cambridge.

OP - I've been googling STEP papers for my DS to do for fun.

Turns out, as I spoke to him 2 mins ago he's already way ahead of me and has been "playing" with them for the last few months....

You sound far more knowledgeable than me OP - I'm definitely going to have to do some "learning graft" of my own...

DeRigeur - I don't know about being more knowledgeable. I've had an extra year to think about this! If you are within anything resembling reasonable travel distance, it's well worth looking on the Oxford and Cambridge websites for outreach events and taster days. We all learned a huge amount just going to a couple of those.

If your son has sought out STEP papers and started having fun with him, I think it's safe to say that Maths is his thing.

by the fourth year they can if they like end up more as theoretical physicists or pure mathematicians etc depending on their leaning.

The fourth year is for those who want to do research. One has to decide on a particular direction and pick 5/6 courses in that direction, be that number theory, theoretical physics or statistics.

As for as I know the Cambridge course has more "applied" (quantum mechanics/High energy physics etc) courses that the Oxford course, but going to open days and looking at the courses online is a very good idea.

Whichever is the final decision, now is a great time to start working through the STEP support programme foundation assignments. We now have video solutions for the STEP questions from the first 3 assignments as well :-) These will help with preparation for interviews as well as STEP.

I'll be talking about STEP at the Cambridge open days in April/May - I'm more than happy to answer questions about STEP if your DD wants to come and say high!

That's clearer than my garbled explanation pqgh!

I'm also happy to answer any questions on here, or for people to PM me.

The Cambridge Assessment Admissions Testing website www.admissionstesting.org/ has a lot of information about STEP (and MAT, and TMUA) and from here you can access past papers for these (and also things like ENGAA - enginnering, NSAA - Natural sciences tests).

Fab - thanks Pallando. It never ceases to amaze me what a wealth of experience and knowledge the people of Mumsnet have to offer.

As for as I know the Cambridge course has more "applied" (quantum mechanics/High energy physics etc) courses that the Oxford course

This used to be true - though you really mean of course mathematical physics not applied maths here. (The Oxbridge interpretation of applied maths being fluids, continuum mechanics, mathematical biology, industrial maths etc.) But Oxford has expanded its mathematical physics provision & now offers a competing fourth year to part III in these areas.

Oxford is #1 in the world these days for maths - www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2019/world-ranking#!/page/0/length/25/locations/GB/subjects/3075/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats

Plus the Andrew Wiles building is lovely and Oxford isn't in the Fens

pqgh Yep, sorry was typing quickly whilst cooking dinner, meant to say "including", should have included FD and others, and should have said "applied and theoretical physics" courses.

Probably one of the best ways to decide if both courses look good is to visit each and decide which place you want to live in for 3(or more) years.

Her Maths teacher has already confessed that he had an offer to Cambridge but missed the STEP requirements which must be absolutely gutting.
It's natural for the DC to think "that won't be me" but it does happen a lot. Does someone have the data which actually shows the percentage of those not making their offer grades? I seem to remember that it is quite sobering.

Plus the Andrew Wiles building is lovely and Oxford isn't in the Fens

Now that's interesting. She really liked the atmosphere in the Andrew Wiles building when she visited Oxford and now that I've Googled it I understand why. It's beautiful and very mathematical.

And I remember those freezing fogs on the Fens. On the whole, I quite liked the bleak countryside around Cambridge, but I do remember a notable day when I arrived at lectures with my hair frozen solid due to the freezing fog which hung around for days!