Oxford - too high pressured?

[AThanvi]

My highly academic DD is little poorly with allergies, eczema and gut issues. She has coped well so far and if anything is feeling much better. She is all 9's in GCSE's despite missing the school most of the year.
She always thought she would be going to Oxford to do PPE but now has changed to English mainly because she thought PPE will be too competitive and stressful...

She is now thinking of not applying to Oxford because she thinks it

1- Might be too stressful and that effects both her skin and gut, in return causes anxiety/sleeplessness and the vicious circle.

2- Isn't impressed with the English course offered at Oxford.

3- Thinks she won't have much fun there if everyone is too busy studying (she is very social but also likes to study and work hard)

at the same time is thinking should I go as she always thought that would be the place for her.

Other options are Birmingham, Kings college London where courses are better.

DH went to Birmingham and is dead against it lol

My Question is what can I do to help her make this decision.
She loves a good discussion and enjoys the quality of class banter, that's why I think she will actually be happier at Oxford.

He has to produce an essay a week (with accompanying reading of at least 100,000 books)

Your boy is some speed reader IrmaFayLear!

Lots of good input from other PPs here, not least on choosing the right course. I can only echo what others have said, either from their own personal experience or that of their DC - students at Oxbridge are not shut in a library 24/7, they do socialise!

It is stressful, but only your child can determine if it would be too stressful. If it's impacting your health, my view is that it's not really worth it, but then I've not had to overcome much in life.

EvaHarknessRose - in fairness, the interview period is really strange and quite pressured, I wouldn't set much store by my interactions with people I met there during that time. I spoke to one person I think, he was a wonderful eccentric, but I don't believe he got in. I would have been seen as socially awkward I'm sure, as I was just keeping my head (and nausea!) down.

My Question is what can I do to help her make this decision.

Open Days would be my advice. Get a feel for the places on the longlist, start working out which places really don't feel like a good fit, and take it from there. But you may tell your DD that she needn't worry on the socialising front.

Someone made a good point about the perfectionist student - these ones can struggle initially at Oxbridge as there is really not time enough to hone each essay to complete satisfaction. If you think your DD is a perfectionist (rather than merely gifted, I mean, all 9's at GCSE, wow!) then it would be worth helping to set her expectations in your conversations.

Alongside the perfectionist element, there's the question raised in the OP of the competitiveness. That can be a positive or a negative, depending on the individual.
Will they be bent out of shape if they're used to always being ahead but now they're more 'normal' (statistically) or will they find a generally higher performing peer group stimulating?

@ErrolTheDragon - I may be wrong but I suspect that the competitiveness won't be much less at other very competitive universities. So a friend of mine's son was at UCL - he was worrying ( first year , first term ) that he had fewer essays to hand in than his girlfriend at Cambridge. I put him in touch with a friend of DS at UCL who was very very happy to reassure him that it will only get a very great deal worse

@ Athanvi - If she genuinely does not like the course then that is of course a big factor. But has she looked in detail. There may be compulsory things to begin with which are intended to get a broad basis in the subject but then can be refined later on.

Also I do think twixt PPE & English - there is a gulf. Probably best to focus on what she is actually going to want to study first off. It is one thing to get into a university. It is another to spend 3 / 4 years actually studying it.

The short terms are "a thing" compared to some other universities but doable if a student is motivated. Also - with a modicum of organisation , other non course work things are entirely possible. DS & his friends did not by and large spend all day every day working and not doing other more relaxing and enjoyable stuff. Of course given short terms often holiday reading / working will be required.

If her medical conditions are a real consideration then it may be worth checking with SFE or the Disability student thing related to SFE or indeed the admissions dept whether she could apply for a room with an ensuite or near bathroom & indeed check out the accommodation for various colleges.

I agree with @Needmore in that being turned down for something for DCs who have been used to achieving highly can be a thing. But very few get through life without being turned down for anything. Tell me about it. DS did go to Oxford and is hitting this right now, internships , other work related things. Also agree with her in that the likes of LSE / UCL / Imperial ( others available ) will need as much work as Oxford.

Further to that rubbish advice @AThanvi - do Birmingham still have the paternoster lifts to get to the English library - if so ( & am sure they will have been retired on H&S grounds ) - I am with your DH.

Anyway - best of luck to her and hope all works out well.

I suspect that the competitiveness won't be much less at other very competitive universities. So a friend of mine's son was at UCL...

You're probably right, but not sure whether that would apply to Birmingham? FWIW DH and I both did our degrees there decades ago, it was a well regarded solid red brick, we had a course with a lot of lectures and labs but I wouldn't describe it as 'competitive'. For subjects where it's now giving UIFs I'd guess it may attract some who are stress averse.

The old main library with its paternosters has been replaced.

Am pleased library has been replaced @ErrolTheDragon - I cannot tell you how much those lifts put me off & I struck B'ham off the list - well got a place at first choice but seriously I just thought - those are scary and I will probably end up not getting books out to do my essay rather than doing that , so I did strike it off for that ( rather pathetic ) reason - wimp , me You and your DH are clearly made of sterner stuff. Just for you ( OK not Birmingham but concept the same. )

Errol.

One more point I do think that often competitiveness comes from within the student so - yes - think about the environment but can't legislate against it.

Sorry to say this but I disagree, UCL is no where near the work of Oxford. Sure it may be more work than Birmingham/Bristol, but it’s not that much work

Thank you absolutely all of you for your valuable advice, I tried tagging but too many names and it may just be annoying.
The details of oxford accommodation and individual experiences have all been very insightful :)
We live in London and her hospital is St Thomas's.

She is revisiting the subject choices, English is her passion, loves Economics but doesn't want to pursue maths beyond A-levels.

I did English and Economics (yes weird combo) (not in UK) but it was perfect for me.

I think visiting uni open days will help her make final choice.

I was a Scientist at Birmingham - but the English course was very different with compulsory Old English followed by another old language like: Icelandic or Angel-Saxon. I'm not sure if it's still like that.
The one big advantage it has is the Shakespeare Institute and in my day English students had a few weeks field trip there in the summer of their first year. Stratford is very convenient and lots of students do "pop down" to see the odd play or two.

@catchet I would be genuinely interested as to why you think that re UCL - do not reply if you do not wish to ( well obviously )

Yes Basilisk, I am also curious.

Guidance DS was given in his first year in London was to spend a couple of hours preparing for each lecture (four subjects) then 4-6 hours afterwards going through the material. Add in some reading round his subject, attending voluntary lectures, revising older material, etc, and he was working hard.

The big difference was that they may not have had as much work formally set, and there was more onus on him to self-organise. However DS liked this because it was a good contrast to school - one criticism of Oxford seems to be that it can be too much like a continuation of school. They certainly went at a cracking pace. In one lecture they covered half of an AS FM paper. DS is now on the first (taught) year of a PhD in the US, with coursemates coming from good Universities from all over the world. (Almost all his Masters coursematess including friends who like him stayed on from undergrad, have gone on to PhDs.) He is the youngest on his course but also one of the best prepared.

If they are working much harder at Cambridge than UCL and LSE (there is a lot of swapping around between the two at UG and Masters in DS’s subject and seemingly not a lot of different in terms of how demanding the courses are, with some simply opting for a change of scenery) their UGs must be setting the world alight, or collapsing from exhaustion.

His experience seems to be mirrored by his friends who went to Imperial. These are all demanding courses. Without tutorials the teaching style is different, but it seems unfair to claim London students work less hard than their Oxbridge peers.

@Needmoresleep - my son did go to Oxford & had to work pretty hard to come out with a good degree. Not all the time & also had time for other stuff ( just to say you can get a decent degree and also have a life! - being organised helps - but that aside ) I genuinely do not think that the two young students I know of who are at UCL - one final year - one first year ) have an easier ride than Oxford. Nor do I believe Oxford is an easier ride. To some extent it will depend on the course - i.e. contact hours etc Ds certainly knew some of his science type course friends had more contact hours - very much so . But then that will be true ( dependent on course) of so many universities. I don't think Oxford is a continuation of school , I just don't - so on that point Needmore I will disagree - but minor) but nor do I believe that a university of the calibre of UCL nor indeed the other good London universities so e.g. LSE, Imperial etc ( not an exhaustive list ) are "easier" than Oxford. I can't believe that. They are all up there ( and so are so many other universities - I know that - but this post was sparked by a comment re London)

Well got that off my chest so and to all

Sorry @catchet - still interested why you may think UCL less work than Oxford.

Basilisk, I will admit to being provocative there! But there is a point about maybe needing more independent drive in London. Teaching style are different and the London one, really suited DS who had always read massively around his subject. Our neighbours son actually says he wishes he had chosen UCL over Oxford - with some comparison as he now works for the former.

The need to self organise and seek out peer support seems to be useful experience for post grad, or indeed the world of work.

So yes you might get away with doing less work in London, but you would be pretty sure that most of your peers, including those paying high overseas student fees will be beavering away and that this will show in results.

I am speaking as a former English grad from Birmingham with a DC at Oxford, albeit studying sciences. There is no way that the workload at Birmingham is the same as at Oxford. The terms are shorter and the workload is definitely higher. This does put stress on students. It means you have to really love your subject and be capable of working hard and at a super fast pace. My DD said that it is clear that some students have never had to really work hard at a sustained pace at school so it’s a shock. She also thinks some schools just haven’t prepared students well for Oxbridge. They just haven’t had the breadth and stretch academically so that also adds pressure.

In my day at Birmingham we spent the first term learning Anglo Saxon whereas friends who went to Oxford were expected to learn the Anglo Saxon primer before they arrived. Having said that, the Birmingham English degree covered both language and literature so was varied and interesting. Birmingham has a lovely campus and the city now is vibrant and energetic. However I think there is something special about the whole Oxford experience especially in the older colleges. So I am a bit envious of my DC.

At the end of the day, I breezed through uni and got a good degree whilst my Oxford friends struggled hard to get the same class of degree. Despite their harder struggles, we all ended up in very similar graduate jobs. In fact I have probably been more successful in my career. Also more graduate employers are hiding the universities people attended on application in an attempt to create more social mobility. I do therefore question what the benefit of an Oxford degree is now unless you really want to go into academic research. Ultimately it comes down to personal choice. I wish your DD best of luck with her decision.

Needmoresleep Basilisk regarding Oxford being a continuation of school, I think it depends what school you went to.
I went to public school. We had houses with housemasters we had weekly tutorials with alone where we discussed our A Level subjects. The house system was strictly adhered to socially and during ‘trough’ which was the name for the rather magnificent dining room we had sit-down breakfast, lunch and dinner in. We had short terms and longer holidays than state schools because of the boarders. We had summer balls and nicknames for everything/one and the ‘masters’ wore mortar boards and gowns for special meals.

My Dds go to state school. They have breakfast at home and make their own lunches/ buy them at the cafe in town or pull out tables at school. I/they make their own dinners at home. They have tutor groups with groups of pupils of various ages but they just go through admin. The house system only is really for sports day. There’s definitely no (naff) nicknames or in-words like at my old school.

For uni, my Dd wants self catering, likes large discussions like seminars to bounce ideas about (as in her A Level classes at the moment). This is what she is familiar with.

I think the transition would have been much easier (less stress??) for me as it would have been so much like my old school.

I have to say having studied Science at Birmingham - we worked much harder than English students and also spent a lot more time in the Lab than Oxford students do (at least in the first 3 years). You really can't compare Science and English degrees. Oxford though is intense because of its short terms.

I have dds at Oxford and Bristol studying the same subject. The course structures are completely different and the Oxford workload is definitely greater. Dds have compared their courses and have concluded that academically they are similarly challenged. I have 2 Dds at Bristol and they are having the time of their lives and have time to do way more extra curricular activities than their sister at Oxford. That might be because the Oxford terms are shorter and the workload is intensely concentrated in shorter weeks.

The two girls studying the same subject have the same A’level grades. Neither girl appears overly stressed and both love to party.

Zanda my own DC had no problem whatsoever moving from state school to Oxford. Independents may well try to emulate Oxbridge but the fact that the collegiate and tutorial systems are untried territory for state school students doesn't mean they find either hard, or 'stressful', to embrace. I remember interviewing for a Headteacher post and having to listen to a Deputy Head from an independent describe their 'Scholars' Dinners' and mortar boards and thinking goodness how unbelievably naff.

Stranger, I don't think it is a problem of state schools not embracing the Oxbridge culture. My slightly provocative point was that for some pupils, most probably as Zanda noted from public schools, the Oxbridge culture is more familiar than London which may require a greater degree of self starting and independence.

The point was in relation to a couple of posters who are insisting that Oxbridge students work harder than those at UCL. My observation is that Oxbridge students may have more work set but since they seem to cover much the same ground, London students must be working as hard or smarter, and that this seemed to be the case with DS and his friends. (DS wrote shockingly few essays, none at all at Masters level, whereas DH reading more or less the same subject piled through them at Oxford, but I doubt he worked less hard.)

A few years back now but a friend's son did not enjoy Oxford much at all. He took a gap year and by the time he arrived he felt so much older than others, to the extent that his friends were almost entirely town rather than gown. My neighbours son, who now says he thinks he would have preferred UCL to Oxford, was shocked on arrival to find how sheltered it was. Some of his fellow students apparently had never been on a bus or train, quite different to his London upbringing where he had commuted to school on his own from age 9. Three years in college or college owned houses, is also more gentle than having to embrace London living.

It may be the teaching approach or the culture, but observation is that the busyness, the independence and lack of formality in London seems to suit some. This may include some overseas students: certainly a good friend of DS, as a scientist and non-Chinese Asian student, found himself socially quite isolated at Cambridge, and DS thinks he would have enjoyed Imperial more.

As for the Deputy Head, some students love tradition and the sense of belonging it brings. I appreciate that for others Oxford traditions are a real downside and potentially as distraction from learning, but a relative who has just finished Oxford from a West Country grammar school, loved the formals, college stuff, gowns etc and sees it as a significant part of her student experience. And ditto I am convinced DS chose his school because he thought it was Hogwarts. Harry Potter has a lot to answer for, but this sort of thing has its appeal to kids, if not adults. However when it came to University he was happy to move on to something quite different.

Needmoresleep I've not entered into the who-works-hardest discussion. There's much to be said for maximum gain minimum effort in my book anyhow. I think that my own DC did varying amounts of work even within the same subject with no obvious difference in the outcome - that was simply their respective natures.

Hmm as to the deputy head and her ghastly dinners....

I've attended a couple of Oxbridge admissions events recently. What is your DD doing to prove her passion (I hate that word) for either PPE or English? Both Oxford and Cambridge are adamant that you cannot rely on excellent GCSE results and simply studying your A level syllabus to get you a place. They expect super-curricular activity, such as independent research, master classes and summer school attendance to prove your commitment to your chosen course. Her school may or may not support her with this, but she needs to start building up a portfolio now of activity related to whichever subject she wishes to take.

Are they adamant though Stickerrocks? I've not come across Oxford saying you need to attend an expensive summer school (UNIQ is of course no cost, but for those who don't get a place). None of my DC did a masterclass either (not actually sure what a masterclass is). The only independent research they did was the EPQ and the eldest didn't even do that. I think OP would be better guided by the published admissions criteria which is GCSE/ aptitude test score heavy, with notice also taken of the school reference and no mention of summer schools or masterclasses or 'independent research'. It's really quite straightforward.

My son has an offer to study law at Oxford in October. He comes from a non-selective Scottish state school which offered no extra help with his application other than the standard academic reference.

He showed passion for his subject in his bedroom at no cost, i.e. entering oxford law essay competitions, reading books, watching podcasts, arranging work experience at local solicitors' offices in his own time. He also ran a school debating society (no teacher involvement) and had national success. His initiate and drive is what secured him his place in my mind.

If he can do it, (with no extra support) from the Highlands of Scotland, anyone can with intelligence, initiate and drive.

Aurea I would expect that your DS has excellent grades (indeed I seem to remember he does!) and a clear aptitude for legal reasoning. No amount of competitions let alone work experience will compensate for that. The key thing is to be good at a subject - lots of applicants are interested and have shelled out parental money to evidence the interest; but that's neither necessary nor sufficient.

Er-o goodbyestranger better get your younger children to do that pesky EPQ! 😂

Going right back to the OP’s question, the MOST important point, of course, is that your daughter is happy and therefore the universities she considers fulfil her criteria. Could my Dd ‘cope’ with the work and lifestyle of Oxbridge? Yes, I think she could but she wouldn’t enjoy it as much. She wants to study on a forward-thinking course that really fits her needs, but also be more independent, cook for herself, have a good social life (which is easier with the workload spread out into longer terms), join societies, go clubbing (not to posh balls), see big name bands, get a part time job. She’s not after a prestigious career in ‘the city’. And she’s not after prestige for prestige’s sake.
Tbh she was told she was Cambridge material by teachers in Year 7 and so, similar to your Dd, always imagined going there. But when it came down to it and we looked at 4 others which met her subjects needs, and how her ‘lifestyle’ would be, she liked two much better to the point that Oxbridge didn’t even get an UCAS from place. It did feel a bit weird after everything people had said but the difference is she now really excited to go to her firm university. If Oxford really excites your daughter she needs to go for it.

Tip: go and visit as many universities as you can in the summer open days to get a feel for the place, accommodation etc. It really helps to focus what she likes/ doesn’t like.

Thank you @ZandathePanda well put x