Oxford - too high pressured?

[AThanvi]

My highly academic DD is little poorly with allergies, eczema and gut issues. She has coped well so far and if anything is feeling much better. She is all 9's in GCSE's despite missing the school most of the year.
She always thought she would be going to Oxford to do PPE but now has changed to English mainly because she thought PPE will be too competitive and stressful...

She is now thinking of not applying to Oxford because she thinks it

1- Might be too stressful and that effects both her skin and gut, in return causes anxiety/sleeplessness and the vicious circle.

2- Isn't impressed with the English course offered at Oxford.

3- Thinks she won't have much fun there if everyone is too busy studying (she is very social but also likes to study and work hard)

at the same time is thinking should I go as she always thought that would be the place for her.

Other options are Birmingham, Kings college London where courses are better.

DH went to Birmingham and is dead against it lol

My Question is what can I do to help her make this decision.
She loves a good discussion and enjoys the quality of class banter, that's why I think she will actually be happier at Oxford.

Ok. Found the data. 732 students gained all grade 9s in their GCSEs in 2018. I think I can safely say that is not typical! Only 4% of GCSEs were awarded a 9 in 2018. So if you are one of 732 you have a great profile!

Somewhat more students got all 9s last year than was predcited to be the 'norm' , largely becuase of bedding in issues and a huge volume of appeals. In future years, the exam board assures us the number of studens with all 9s will be tiny. It was 732 in 2018. Hardly typical!

bubbles, I meant, if you have a student applying to Oxbridge, that will be a typical profile (which is not to say it'll be the profile of the majority). It won't put you at the top of the tree. It's good, but it won't mean you can relax and assume you're a safe bet.

My observation is that Oxbridge students seem to manage to do more than just work!

And something to bear in mind is that after the first year, students at other universities may find additional stresses because of having to deal with private landlords, maybe have quite a commute and may be spread around the area away from their friends and coursemates making socialising harder.

But the number 1 thing you go to university for is surely the course, so in your DDs case that may be what she needs to prioritise.

Approx 36,000 students applied to Oxbridge in 2017 @SarahAndQuack. 732 is 2%of them with straight 9s (I know I’m conflating different years, but the order of magnitude will be the same) so really not a typical profile.

That’s 2% of all applicants to Oxford AND Cambridge.

I know someone doing ppe at lse and loves it. He isthriving

The OPs DD is one of the 732. So yes, hoxt, I agree. It is not typical.

Oxbridge does work you much harder than other unis... I know a number of incredibly smart, motivated, high-achieving people who came close to dropping out in their first term because of the volume of work and the lack of time to do work to the quality you'd normally want to. But once they got over that hump every I know had a great time. The terms are shorter than others at least.

But if DD's not keen on the English course, give it some thought - the English doesn't go to modern lit at all, and you can't study it in combination with other subjects. I applied for a choral scholarship in Cambridge but pulled out because I realised I didn't want to their English course.

Flattered by your touching faith Bubbles! :)

Yes that's correct SarahandQuack: I'm afraid you're talking bollocks.

In fact the figure of 732 is a really distorted one because it's the figure for those students getting 7 or more 9s provided they didn't take any GCSE in addition in which they scored less. So DC who got eg 9 9s and an 8 (which is what DD4 got) don't feature in the figure of 732. Ofqual has chosen to come up with this complicated formula but not a straight account of how many DC got 7 or more 9s, 8or more 9s, 10 or more 9s etc.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/735678/GCSE_Infographic_23.8.18.pdf

If you looked around the top school websites on results day this year it was immediately clear that very, very few DC got 8 or more 9s - and I mean schools such as Henrietta Barnet, QEB, Pate's etc. The independents were in a separate league because almost every one including Westminster ducked the challenge of switching to the new GCSEs and stuck with a least a good handful of the old easier IGCSEs.

In short, that many 9s will be very rare on UCAS forms for 2020 entry, even for Oxford and Cambridge applicants - absolutely not typical.

AThanvi it sounds to me as though your DD’s main worry is about not gaining an Oxford place since she changed her course choice.
Like PPs I would definitely advise her to go for the course she prefers at Oxbridge and the other universities she wants to consider. If she gets in great, she can then choose whether to take up the offer but will know her own mind better by then. If she does n’t despite her fantastic GCSE grades she can congratulate herself on daring to risk and what she will have learnt from the process including resilience.

Oxbridge is very well set-up for an easy social environment due to the colleges and many of the students want to make the most of university life as well as study so she certainly does not need to worry about that aspect.

Oxbridge does work you much harder than other unis..

Is this true, or a MN legend. DC we know at LSE, UCL and Imperial work very hard indeed. And when DS applied for postgraduate courses, he did not find he was any disadvantage from not having been to Oxbridge.

She should apply. She may not be offered a place, and if she is she can make up her mind then. She should apply for the course she wants to do. Humanities students can struggle wherever they go, if they are not really into their subject.

I would have thought that employment prospects are better if you have read PPE, even if it is at the LSE rather than Oxford.

I'm sorry! You're all right and I'm wrong - I automatically read that 'up' to 7000 not 700, because I was thinking about straight A/A* GCSEs. I'm sorry.

My DS is in the pretty rare posistion of having gone to LSE for a year and found within a few weeks of going that London wasn’t for him. So he is able to make a like
for like comparison of workload at Oxbridge vs non oxbridge, elite.
He reapplied whilst continuing to study at the LSE and got into Oxford. He completed two terms at the LSE whilst making his mind up about what to do, so has a good experience. He dropped out and started fresh at Oxford in October.

Now at a similar stage of progress at Oxford as he was at LSE. He can say hand on heart that people there work a hell of a lot more than in London. He says the teaching is much better for his course, but the workload is much much higher. However, he does think that more guidance is given to individual students, whereas LSE was make your own work.

It's hypothetical I think. If she's not keen on the course they will suss that out at interview and won't offer.
I think the deciding factor when choosing the universities you're going to apply for is that they offer courses that you're passionate about.

My Dd didn’t like the English course at Cambridge but they are changing it for 2020 so it may be worth a look. We went to look at departments in 5 different universities where she liked the look of the course and chose based on how much she liked the uni. It’s worth going to see accommodation (as she would hopefully get her choice due to medical reasons) and possibly medical facilities too. My Dd is predicted AAA but has gone for two that listed AAB and then offered ABB (I think due to A in EPQ and GCSE results) because she loves the course/city/location and feels she will be happiest at those choices. A shocking number of people from her school from last year dropped out of university in the first year so ‘where she feels happiest’ is the most important criteria to us.

I think there’s a good chance Birmingham would have offered an unconditional for English for her this year (based on what has been offered this year at my Dds school) which would helped her stress levels at exam time!

Birmingham led the way with unconditional offers from RG universities. 18.4%.

I think students at Oxford have to work hard because the pace is fast and the terms are short. It means students are used to working hard and employers know this. I have no doubt other universities expect students to work but the pace undoubtedly varies from university to university and course to course.

I know English is a huge subject but if you love literature, I’m finding it difficult to understand why students don’t like all literature? Surely there are core works that are the backbone of an English degree? Or are they now viewed as too hard so students want to swerve them?

I wonder if the fact that the courses in Oxford are well taught with plenty of support helps counterbalance the stress of the heavy 'workload'
Certainly with my DC the things that caused them stress during their University years at other Unis was badly taught modules or courses and lack of resources . For example the strikes caused one of my DC an awful lot of stress with one of her modules as the lecturer wouldn't give any guidance on what was happening. She ended up scrabbling around and self teaching practically the whole module from the notes of student that had done the module the previous year. I don't really know but I can't imagine that sort of thing would have happened at Oxford. There are plenty more examples. Do students at Oxford have to get to their libraries for 7am if they won't to be sure to get a workspace? 🤷🏼‍♀️
Again, I don't really know, but I presume that the fact that Oxford is so much better funded than many other Universities and has top notch facilities and staff makes for a less stressful student experience.

Another strike against Oxbridge is that it seems such an enormous effort to be even considered (extra tests, analysing colleges etc) so families become invested in the process only for the child to feel a failure when they don’t get through the interview. Look at some of the posts on this forum to make sure your Dd isn’t going to get too stressed if she doesn’t get in. It sounds like there is always a slight ‘luck’ element to it anyway.

Zanda, you may be right. DS was upset not to be offered Cambridge, but it was good to manage this upset whilst he was still at home. (The rejection was his problem, bright children have often not "failed" anything before and the LSE course was just as good if not better.) However the experience of not getting something and discovering that it did not matter is then invaluable.

The rejections flow thick and fast once they start applying for internships and then jobs.

On the point of whether Oxbridge students work harder, it is true they work hard. For example year 2 of NatSci is apparently very tough. However DS and his friends worked hard in London. The difference perhaps was that there was more emphasis on self starting and self management, plus the second year at LSE can be brutal and it is not uncommon for students to fail and have to repeat the year. The teaching approach is different at Oxford. This can be good, or not. The LSE really suited DS. He got lots of support, probably because he was keen and engaged, formed a good study group and turned up to office hours and was active in his subject society, whilst a friend at Oxford, taking a minority subject with minimum teaching hours, struggled with a disinterested tutor.

But that goes back to an earlier point. You don't need to make the decision now, if she applies the decision is either made for her or she is then a year older and post interview will know more about the place/course. You can also switch Universities after a year if it is really not working.

If I had gut and stress issues I wouldn’t be considering a London college. I find they’re all a bit anonymous, lots of overseas students, plus the stress of commuting, crowds, etc.

Oxford will be an amazing experience, I’m sure they’ll have their fill of managing high achievers and stress related issues. Do PPE, jeez if a div like David Cameron managed it...

DD2 now looking at Oxford having seen what an amazing time DD1 had there. Yes, it is intense, by wow, what an experience. DD1, and all her graduate friends, also all now employed in London doing a vast range of employment, they all flat share together in small groups, and still meet regularly.

I digress. DD2 was looking at English, but having spoken to DD1 friends, decided against. Now looking at History, Ancient and Modern. There is also a joint History/Eng degree which may be of interest.

Definitely concur will all pp's that the course is the prime driver for selection of university. Three/four years of study, you have to enjoy what you are doing. Then for us, the next most important criteria was location. DD1 (and DD2) didn't want to be far from home, so stuck (are sticking) to Southern England.

She sounds wise. Let her walk her own path. A very academic person i know went for interview there and had the experience that the majority of the fellow interviewees were fairly socially awkward (nothing wrong with this but there was a lack of mix of personalities) and talking about subjects/playing games that he wasn't interested in. She didn't get in in the end.

Ds works hard. He has to produce an essay a week (with accompanying reading of at least 100,000 books) and has to discuss/defend this with a professor every week. Nowhere to hide. No excuses.

Some weeks he loves the topic. Others he's moaning and groaning and can't get into it. You have to largely love the subject otherwise every single week it will be torture having to do the work.

Friends doing same subject at other (RG) universities cannot believe the amount of work ds has to do.