'Lecturers want pupils to apply after A levels'

[ErrolTheDragon]

Article in The Times today, saying that lecturers want a change in the university application process.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/make-students-apply-to-university-after-a-levels-say-lecturers-dtldwtd5l?shareToken=79c1a983110e2916885b64d9e13867cd

Do you think it's a good idea?

The system was bollocks when I applied to Uni 13 years ago and it's bollocks now. The problem is that the system is so entrenched, there's no way to change it in a meaningful fashion without a broken year who suffer. It also doesn't help that Gove and other cunts won't leave schools the hell alone for 5 minutes between twiddling with policy in order to generate headlines.

Compulsory gap year?

Could be used for uni prep and/or work experience. The universities could even set compulsory preparatory study once offers were made and accepted.

Might also weed out some of the less committed.

Compulsory gap year?

Bad idea for the many - I would think the majority - who can cope absolutely fine with the current system, and who are ready for university on the current schedule. As I said upthread, the option of a gap year is already there for those that want it.

I would be in favour of degree programmes lasting 4 years

There already seem to be a lot of integrated Masters on offer. This is pretty much the norm for engineers, but there are lots in other STEM subjects. However - DH took a look at the syllabus for the MSci at the uni where we both did our BScs and PhDs, and he thought the content was pretty similar over the 4 years to what we'd done in 3.

There are quite a lot of foundation year courses available in some fields. Maybe those should be commoner, and compulsory for anyone who really doesn't have the grades required to hit the ground running. This seemed to be how the engineering degrees DD was applying for worked, plus if grades weren't high enough after the first or second year of the degree proper then they'd leave at the BEng stage.

What would happen if universities had to fix their courses admissions requirements and were not allowed to drop them on results day. Might that be fairer? It might make admissions staff more realistic and honest with what grades they are asking for and might it also discourage the ridiculous amount of over optimistic predicted grades.

The problem now is the that there is no reason for teachers and students not to inflate predicted grades as chances are that the students will still get their place on their chosen course.

Apart from the most competitive unis and courses the published entry requirements seem to be something a lot of Unis are increasingly flexible about. It makes the whole process a game playing exercise.

The way things are currently going, surely there's going to be an increased stratification in standards between the courses which demand high grades, with little wiggle room (and at the top it seems like requirements are edging up if anything) and those which don't.

From the perspective of employers there is already pretty significant stratification.

The Irish CAO system for me works better — you list your ten preferred university course choices in order of preference and are automatically offered the first course for which you meet the required points (converted from Leaving Cert grades). Courses which require a portfolio/interview/practical test run these in the spring before the degree starts, and those candidates who get through pass on through into the general system.

That’s pretty much the Australian system - at least when I worked there for a bit. It seems to work.

But, the Australian University system is far less specialised than the UK. Students don’t read specific subject - they do a mix , as in the US system and a little bit like the first two years of the Scottish system. And the funding is such (mostly non-existent) that most university students go to their nearest university and live at home. It’s not as high quality an experience as in the UK in that respect.

FlipF I agree with you that this should be the way forward for universities without separate pre tests and interviews.
There is so much gamemanship in all this, over inflated grade predictions or the converse at schools plus universities wanting to seem more academically selective on their website but actually dropping their grade requirements to fill places (without looking at PSs).

Offers should of course consider educational context. As I said some time ago, foundation courses should be increased including at top ranking universities for disadvantaged students at poor schools.

I think the government should fund that first year foundation for those students. They are unlikely to lose much money from loan payments.

Most admissions could be done rapidly by achieved grades with a computerised system. More easily done for STEM subjects but I suspect not that difficult for humanities at many universities.
Students can then finalise their choice by accepting or rejecting the grade based offers. If they achiever lower than expected grades possibly a PS option to be deployed but that would have to be for deferred entry.
Of course degrees and universities requiring interviews and pre tests would have to continue as now to fit in all the applicants.
I personally would favour a Bac / IB timeline for exams and results.

• As I said some time ago, foundation courses should be increased including at top ranking universities for disadvantaged students at poor schools.
  I think the government should fund that first year foundation for those students.*

ITA. Apparently Cambridge is planning to introduce a 'transitional year' to help broaden access.

Yes Errol. As you probably know LMH at Oxford has already started one but this scheme needs to be expanded. Durham have foundation years for several degrees but not aimed specifically for the purpose of disadvantaged students.

As can'tkeepawayforever says, it would not work in the conservatoire/vocational training route. Dh's institution auditions every student that applies and the auditions last an entire day.

August is the only time we have as a family to go away anywhere and even then there are undergrad re-take assessments in July.