'Lecturers want pupils to apply after A levels'

[ErrolTheDragon]

Article in The Times today, saying that lecturers want a change in the university application process.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/make-students-apply-to-university-after-a-levels-say-lecturers-dtldwtd5l?shareToken=79c1a983110e2916885b64d9e13867cd

Do you think it's a good idea?

Off the back of Titchy's post, I am wating for someone to point out that this is what is done - highly successfully- in Scotland...

Off the back of Titchy's post, I am wating for someone to point out that this is what is done - highly successfully- in Scotland...

And was done in England up till four years ago when A levels were decoupled.... also successfully!

Yes, my twins felt the AS they did (I think they were the last year to do them) were really helpful (not least because they got AAAA) and also felt the pressure of exams three years in a row was fine.

We used to have 7th term Oxbridge in the UK. I think my brother did it as his school offered that term after upper sixth (and then he had the rest of the gap year abroad). It was difficult for most children however who were in schools that did not offer it.

I am certainly not a fan of unconditional offers.

As an academic and an admissions tutor, I am broadly in favour of a change...however without a significant reorganisation of the academic year itself (and associated summer conference season worldwide etc etc) it's not currently doable.

I do prefer the Scottish system of Highers taken in the equivalent of lower sixth with a top-up final year. It is far more sensible (as are most things in Scotland vs England )

They also wanted to keep AS and A2 but Gove got rid of them.

Yes, my twins felt the AS they did (I think they were the last year to do them) were really helpful (not least because they got AAAA) and also felt the pressure of exams three years in a row was fine.

Likewise for my DD. Her AS results gave her the confidence to have a shot at Cambridge, she probably wouldn't have based on her GCSEs even if she'd been getting good A level predictions internally from the school. And because there was a proper public exam the school encouraged starting 4 (or even 5) subjects, and then cutting back after the AS. Good system.

Anyway... we are where we are. Hopefully som of the unis currently giving out unconditional offers will find it's biting them in terms of dropouts and/or underachievement and will review this practice.

As alluded to above the system does need looking at but i'm not sure this is the answer.

The concept of Post Qualification Admissions (PQA) raises it's head every few years. The concept is nothing new and certainly makes sense BUT it would involve a a huge overhaul of the structures.
In his paper Grahame Atherton suggests starting the university year in November for first years. That will have huge implications for students and universities. I could see it having a huge impact on retention as the xmas break would coincide with peak homesickness time.

thrue titchy but slightly different, in that Scotland's sytem results in mainly unconditional offers being issued.

The reformed French bac is going to have a system of post-examination offers. The main bac exams will be done and dusted by April of Terminale (Year 13) with applications via Parcoursup (UCAS) thereafter.

There is of course nothing to stop students applying with results in hand after a gap year. The fact that this is considered non ideal for courses with significant mathematical content suggests that a long gap between exams and starting a degree - unless there was some post- exam academic work somehow still possible - wouldn't be good for these subjects.

Suggestion that loans should be restricted to students with at least 3D grades might help concentrate the minds of those inclined to slack (whether it's a good idea in general or not)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/universities-at-risk-from-tuition-fee-curbs-fn0rhvx3k?shareToken=f868de8735308a8b1c4d4f373e6ba1e1

Applying with results in hand after a gap year really suits some students but not all. One disadvantage is that they are unable to make use of clearance and benefit from courses which have lowered their entry requirements.

It amazing that no one can think of anyway at all to improve the current admissions procedure. Is it because the current system works ok for the very top universities and because they have the loudest voice then nothing changes?

As someone whose child has just been through the UCAS conservatoires route, complete with auditions / interviews for every institution applied to, I really can't see that working for the - admittedly small - number of students taking this type of route
For my DD currently going through auditions it would be so much better to be able to focus on her A levels rather than a miss a day (or more) off school for each audition. Plus if she could audition after her exams then she would have the benefit of the full drama training she is receiving which would also help in her audition, rather than effectively applying after 4 terms training.

Or how about a system like in the USA where students are measured on every piece of work they have done over the past 4 years going a GPA (grade point average) rather than base everything on one set of exams?

US university admissions are a nightmare! We do not want to go there.

The gcse and A level system has just been overhauled, partly because internally assessed coursework wasn't deemed rigorous enough - while maybe the balance is now too exam orientated, I can't see the U.K. going for anything like the GPA system.

MariaNovella I agree that the US admissions are complex and time consuming but we don't need the whole system. Just the aspect where a student is measured by their performance over time, not just on one particular moment. By taking a pupil's results over 4 years of exams, coursework, homework, project work etc you are getting a far broader picture of the pupil and their work ethic as well as their abilities in exactly the format that they will be measured by at university and later in life. I don't know one job where one's performance is measured by their performance in an exam after several years of work. Every job I know measures performance on a day to day basis on a person's ability to manage their time, workload, learning in a way that information is retained the whole time not just crammed for a moment, communication skills - verbal and written, problem solving and individual approach to achieving the goal. Perhaps we would be better off measuring students by the same stick as that with which they will be measured in life. It would see an end to brilliant academics hiding substandard ability in the workplace which is what so many employers are complaining about.

It takes like half an hour to apply for university (one might have to interview/sit a test as well). It’s really not onerous.

@MariaNovella the country I grew up in we made out applications the year we sat our final exams. It really wasn’t an issue st all. If students can’t cope with applying to university and sitting exams in the same year then they’re not going to cope with university/the real world.

Racecatdriver - you are seriously underestimating the amount of preparation required for applications to competitive courses. Try doing several weeks of vet work experience in half an hour 🤯

Just spotted this thread and agree with this:

Misleading headline. “Lecturers” don’t want this change, as far as I can see. It’s not clear who the union have consulted on this

UCU has form for not consulting its members before presuming to speak on their behalf (usually taking a line diametrically opposed to what most of us want). I am not aware of any consultation on this, and neither are any of my colleagues who are involved in admissions.

I reckon it’s in response to predicted grades being wrong in the vast majority of cases and the loss of AS results as any sort of externally assessed benchmark of aptitude.

This. When the government consulted on dropping AS levels, universities said they were against the idea, because they liked having a reliable indicator of ability. Gove ignored this, of course, in favour of the voices in his head.

There’s no way that university applications could be made after the results without making exams much earlier. Exam boards have a tight enough window to mark as it is. Teaching time would have to be reduced to compensate for exams being earlier. Course content would have to be reduced to allow for reduced teaching time. Students would go to university having covered less material.

Bad idea all round, basically.

Students would go to university having covered less material.

Which is essentially the case in many US universities, isn't it?

Degree courses in the US are longer.

I would be in favour of degree programmes lasting 4 years (as is the case in many countries), by the way. I am certain that my students are not graduating at the same level that they were 15 years ago. We now have to treat the first year as a foundation year, because key knowledge and skills are lacking. So, effectively, only two years of the degree are actually at degree level.

But, of course, since university is all about value-for-money now, the pressure is on to make degree courses even shorter.

I’m an academic, and would be in favour of changing the current system. The Irish CAO system for me works better — you list your ten preferred university course choices in order of preference and are automatically offered the first course for which you meet the required points (converted from Leaving Cert grades). Courses which require a portfolio/interview/practical test run these in the spring before the degree starts, and those candidates who get through pass on through into the general system. LC results come out around the same time as A-levels, but offers are only made then.