Oxbridge Applications 2019 (Part Three)

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Today is a big day for many... time for a new thread too

Just heard a very interesting interview with the head of the ‘41 Oxbridge offers’ school. His aim is to improve access for underprivileged pupils to all top universities - not just Oxbridge, though the press has focused on that element of course. They start identifying students with potential in year 7, so it’s not about importing them all at sixth-form level. And in terms of how they do it, they have an access team consisting of five Oxbridge graduates to inspire the children, the idea being that when you see people in front of you who have achieved, then you begin to believe that you can achieve too.

I think it’s a really important flagship project that deserves to be replicated elsewhere. Hopefully it will inspire other schools to take similar initiatives. Getting more children into top universities improves aspiration and achievement throughout a school at every level. My DD’s school has had more Oxbridge offers this year than ever before (7, as opposed to the usual 0-2), and you can already see the teachers recognising that this is now a Thing. I hope future pupils there will get a lot more support than DD did.

There does seem to be a feeling on here that it’s fine for private schools to help children into top universities but if state schools do it they’re somehow neglecting ordinary pupils. But spotting talent means that you ARE focusing on ordinary pupils - that’s where you find the talent. The process of doing so creates the conditions where all pupils can achieve to their highest ability - whatever that may be.

I wish there was a like button! So many thoughtful and interesting posts. I agree cinammon
So, re offers, my DDs offer is A*AA in any order. She already has 2 A stars but they haven’t been taken in to account. They want to see three done at a time and one of her early ones is not considered academically rigorous.

In my experience the ethos in most "ordinary" schools is that they'd rather die than identify academic talent. From the word go at primary school you get the vaguely named tables to try to disguise who is working at which level. Then there is the outrage by many (and yes on MN) about streaming and even the less brutal setting in some subjects.

I think one problem is that in some schools many (most?) of the teachers have not been to a particularly good university. I saw the degrees of the teachers in a local school and they were all from, er, not very esteemed places. I'm not saying that the teachers are practising inverted snobbery or worse, but perhaps they genuinely believe that the University of Bedfordshire/Southampton Solent is a perfectly fine choice for every student.

Agree with much of what you say Cinnamon. I am still confused as to why you think Harris Westminster does not take “de facto bright kids”. This is patently untrue. It is also interesting to note that the initial inception of Harris came about as a result of a partnership agreement between Harris Academy and Westminster School. Indeed some of the lessons themselves are held inside Westminster School. Comforting that in some instances the best of the state system can work with the best of the private to create such a successful institution. Less stigmatising of either system would,in my opinion, be hugely beneficial in the discussion.

There does seem to be a feeling on here that it’s fine for private schools to help children into top universities but if state schools do it they’re somehow neglecting ordinary pupils.

That's the thing that puzzles me the most, Cinnamontoast.

There's talent everywhere. The nationwide news focussing on a few inner city schools makes it seem as though children from these areas will be overrepresented at Oxbridge and other top unis but that's not the case at all. More top talent will miss out than get in.

Anyway, after the story of Prof. Caucher Birkar, Cambridge and others like them will know that talent from London Borough of Newham is every bit as good as talent from St. Paul's School or a remote area of Northern Ireland.

Muggling, I haven't mentioned Harris Westminster. Another poster?

I think there is a consensus on here ( I hope!) that initiatives to get more working-class children into top universities are unequivocally a good thing, and also that change should be structural rather than tinkering around the edges. Structural change has to come from government, but until then Brampton Manor is highlighting a way to help redress the balance. I do entirely agree with posters who say that there are resources in London that are not available elsewhere. That is partly a result of the effort New Labour put into secondary education in big cities, especially London, in response to very serious issues in these areas. Now, of course, we can see the neglect and underachievement that characterised urban schools is also an issue in areas like the east of England. We need a government prepared to install similar initiatives in those areas, and to give good teachers incentives to move there.

Maillaika, yes, the fact that all the headlines are about one state school shows how unusual it is, and how underrepresented children like these are.

A really excellent piece from Alan Rusbridger here, called 'If Oxford Shrugs', give a very balanced view of the current inequalities: www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/if-oxford-shrugs-alan-rusbridger-admissions-lmh

Hi cinnamon. Which school were you talking about when you said they don’t take “de facto bright kids”?

Muggling, I was talking about Brampton Manor - basically saying they don't simply import bright children, they work hard to uncover potential and give the right kind of support to the children they have. Obviously in sixth form, as at other sixth forms, children from other schools apply to join.

Brsmpton 6th form has very stringent grade requirements. It imports many super bright kids. This is no bad thing. The point is these stellar A level results are a factor of attracting a plethora of smart, motivated kids to the school.

The point is these stellar A level results are a factor of attracting a plethora of smart, motivated kids to the school.

Has anybody contested this point?

Is there something shameful about it?

Hi Mailika. Nice to chat.

Nothing shameful. Just pointing out that nobody should be overly surprised when they excel in their A levels having attracted all the brightest minds.

Re "importing super bright kids".

As Cinammontoast said, Brampton Manor identifies talent in Year 7. It then takes how many years to guide the kids to good A level grades and good universities? Don't you see any added value there?

Hi Malaika. It is certainly a fantastic school. I have every respect for those young children applying themselves wonderfully and achieving great things. Simply pointing out that their intake into the 6th form from outside the school will be of children who are motivated and have already achieved fantastic GCSEs.

Their sixth-form intake includes a high proportion of pupils on free school dinners. This group is massively underrepresented at top universities, so it is to Brampton Manor's credit that it is getting them there. It is also to its credit that it continues to provide them with free school dinners in sixth form, gives hardship grants where appropriate, and provides study areas from 7am till late evening. These measures are what make the difference to children from low-income families.

Nobody should be overly surprised when they excel in their A levels. They totally should be surprised, when you look at the usual results for children on free school meals.

What are the school's grade requirements, Muggling?

There's a famous private school near where I live with insanely good GCSE results every year, something like 95% A*-A, most of the girls then move to sixth form in the same school.

I find it endlessly fascinating that this same school consistently gets 7-10 girls into Oxbridge every year, sometimes fewer. What happens to all the talent from GCSEs?

There does not exist a simple direct mapping between the talent Brampton Manor admits into sixth form and uni destinations....a lot of work is put in between joining and leaving the school.

Simply pointing out that their intake into the 6th form from outside the school will be of children who are motivated and have already achieved fantastic GCSEs.

Yes, Mugglingstrum, as I said previously, some students would have been using facilities in places like UCL and have mentors from there as well as Oxbridge teachers/mentors.

Well said, Cinnamontoast.

I agree, •Malaika*: they haven't just lucked out at sixth form level, they are changing the ethos of the whole school.

I've checked the grade requirements and they are not massively stringent. My DCs' averagely good state schools asked for five GCSEs with a minimum grade 6/B in the subjects studied at A level; Brampton asks for minimum grade 7/low A.

Hi Cinnamon/Malaika. Think we are in agreement it is a wonderful school and it achieves fantastic exam success. I was merely pointing out that it’s 6th form is selective.

I would be very careful about indentifying talent as young as year 7, especially with the end goal of an oxbridge application.
My DD’s school did this, and she was not allowed chosen to be part of the talented group. A set as it was, above Set One.
The “A team” as they labelled themselves were meant to sit their exams for science and maths early but were not ready so did it at the same time as everyone else. Not one of them got A*s in all the sciences and maths, dd did. Infact dd got better results than all of them.

Not one of them got into Oxbridge or medicine.

Personally I think it inflated their ego far beyond good whilst making others feel not bright enough. She remembers one boy boasting that he was in this special class, therefore he wants to be a Judge. I very much doubt he’ll be a judge with a law degree from Nottingham Trent.....

Grade 7 is a minimum and “significantly higher grades may be required to secure a place”. It is also a shame that those who don’t meet the academic requirements are not able to take advantage of what is clearly an inspirational 6th form.

I am a teacher in the state sector IrmaFayLear. You are right - I never went to what you would feel was a good university and I was the first in my family to stay at school beyond 16. That has not stopped me being highly aspirational for my pupils or indeed my own DS. Your post is quire insulting!

Although hubble, I would say that it can happen. Some teachers at Dds school told her Oxford is only for posh english people... of which we are neither..