Scottish universities

[LoniceraJaponica]

I believe that degrees at Scottish universities are usually over four years. Does this mean that the first year is slightly easier for English students who may have covered some of the coursework in their A levels? Do they get a shock in the second year when they actually have to do some work?

DD is taking a gap year and her friends who are in Scotland seem to party all the time and do very little work. Her friends at English universities party less and have more work to do, or are they just more conscientious?

I would imagine Aberdeen is ancient too as it dates from 1495 and is almost 100 years older than Edinburgh.

I've taught Highers and A levels and Highers are more challenging in terms of time scales/depth of knowledge and number of subjects studied simultaneously. Perhaps that's why some first year students find it more straightforward?

Yeah Aberdeen counts, we had four Universities when England only had two, for hundreds of years!

One thing that has not been mentioned yet is that depending on the course (and university?), students will generally take 3 different subjects in first year.

Totally depends on the University and degree, but in my degree I did 5. (Although to be fair that wasn't yesterday). I was in the Arts faculty but had the flexibility in my first year to do two modern languages, History, and two Business faculty subjects too, Marketing and Business structure and administration or something. It was much broader than choosing a set combination from the start.

Had I decided at the end of my first year that instead of doing French and Marketing as I'd intended and applied for, I actually wanted to do Italian and Economics, I'd have had the flexibility to do that.

I changed my course after the first year ( and faculties - science to art!) The extra year have me the flexibility to do that and not be behind, couldn't have done that in an English Uni. But it was a bit weird that my school friends had finished their degree and I still had a year to go.

It’s not the case that only science subjects allow direct entry to 2nd year. I studied A levels in NI and was offered direct entry into 2nd year at Scottish Uni to study History & Politics. I had an A at History A level but had never studied politics before.

I chose to do 1st year as one of the reasons I had chosen a Scottish Uni was the opportunity to experience a wider range of subjects in 1st year. In first year I studied History, Politics, industrial Relations, Sociology and Business. It was a great chance to experiment academically. I did stick with the History & Politics but once accepted to the Arts and Social Studies faculty I could have chosen any combination of subjects offered by that faculty to take to Honours.

I studied only History & Politics from year 2 onwards.

First year was probably a similar academic level to A level or Advanced higher, but with much less guidance than at school, getting to grips with how to research effectively and massive reading lists!

So kind of like doing 5 A levels/Advanced highers, with for me, 4 of them being subjects I hadn’t studied before. I remember it being a great introduction to Uni level work and not exactly a doss!

Great memories, highly recommend the Scottish HE system.

For sciences and languages and other subjects where the learning material is similar throughout the world English students in first year might have a slightly easier start to first year than many Scottish students, but the climb in approach and difficulty entering university level study should still be comparable. A-levels are difficult for 17 year olds, but they don't represent all that much knowledge. If you are doing humanities (but not languages) there is very little difference. Scottish students may benefit from a broader high school education, and some English students might be better at writing essays. Keep in mind that the English 3 year degree is very short by international standards, Scotland's system is the same as that of the USA. At some Scottish universities there are increasingly lots of North Americans whose level of specialization in high school is even lower than that of Scotland, but they still all succeed.

Some folks have deliberately misunderstood the OP. It's fairly clear they're asking about first year given the different ending years of school between Scotland and England.

I think (based on friend experience) that first year is more a transition year in Scotland if you're an English student, at least for most of it. Then 2nd, 3rd and 4th year are more comparable to the 3 year course at an English university.

I am liking the sound of the Scottish university model a lot. Why isn't it adopted in England and Wales?

LittleCandle I did apologise further on in this thread.

I may also add that I studied at a Scottish Ancient back in the 80's
I initially started a BSc degree and in first year studied Geography and Geology ( which I was hoping to graduate in) . As I was in Science faculty I had to study either Maths, Physics or Chemistry in first year ( I chose chemistry as I had Higher - didn't have Maths or Physics, but biology -
I then had to choose a 4th subject to make up the credits...I chose Psychology
By the end of first year, I'd decided I'd hated geology and was struggling with chemistry
Fortunately, I was able to change to Arts faculty as I had sufficient credits in Geography and Psychology( which it turned out I loved!) and I then continued with it in 2nd year, concentrating on Geography in my final 2 Honours year and finally graduated with a 2:1 in Geography.
If I'd studied at an English Uni, I would most likely have crashed and burned at the end of first year, but thanks to the Scottish HE system I had a second chance without having to repeat the year!

I went to school in England and University in Scotland, albeit second year entry and decidedly got the impression that first year was for drinking if you had either done A levels or advanced highers.

Fortunately when I applied offers for second year entry were quite common (I remember being offered first year entry and a large scholarship or second year entry and a smaller one). I expect the new higher fees will only have encouraged such practices.

Had a conversation with DD this evening and as she hasn't used up all her UCAS application and she is seriously considering at least one Scottish university. Thank you for your input everyone.

I am liking the sound of the Scottish university model a lot. Why isn't it adopted in England and Wales?

I discussed this with my English DC and why they didn't want to apply to a Scottish Uni.

Their reasons, in summary:
a) I dont want second year entry, I want to start with everyone else my own age.
b) Uni is expensive enough, I dont want to pay for a year I dont need.
c) I will have spent 7 years studying other subjects, I know what I want to do at Uni, I want to 100% study that, not several other subjects.
d) I don't want all the drinking and partying, I want to get stuck into the subject I love (weird I know).
e) Their are 4 English Unis in the worlds top ten, so they must be doing something right.

I think how much drinking and partying there is depends on the subject and crowd you get in with and your personality rather than the uni. My son doing engineering had little time for partying and didn't like it any way. Also for the first few months he was too young to drink. I think if they are happy with their English choices then fine, but due to the quotas it seems easier to get in to good Scottish unis from England than Scotland.

@Walkingdeadfangirl
a) 2nd year entry isn't necessary, and not common at the 'good' universities in Scotland
b) 4th year is generally 'free' for English students
c) can't really respond, but most people like the opportunity to do more 'outside' subjects and become a more rounded person.
d) Scottish universities are not less demanding than English ones. Worth noting that St Andrews and Stirling have less distractions than the others.
e) If they can get into St Andrews, there's no English uni better except Oxbridge. Edinburgh's not far behind but suffers these days in league rankings due to failure to properly game the student satisfaction system.

I noticed that the student satisfaction scores for Edinburgh were on the low side. I wonder why.

Dd did her undergraduate degree at Dundee and MSc at Edinburgh...loved both of them for very different reasons
Edinburgh had many more foreign students, whether that has any bearing on student satisfaction and their expectations? However it is 18th in World rankings and this factor certainly helped when she applied for ( international) jobs

@ronatheseal I was just getting a 17 yo opinion, who has been applying recently.

2nd year entry isn't necessary of course but that means you apply to 1st year and all the issues related to that.

4th year is generally 'free' for English students Not at Edinburgh or St Andrews. And all Scottish Unis have 4 years accommodation and living expenses. No need for this extra expense.

Some students might need to study several subjects at Uni to be a rounded person, many like my DC just want to get on with what they want to study.

Children are aware that there are 4 English Unis in the worlds top ten, it makes an impression on them.

Not every child wants to spend a year drinking and partying.

Its good Scotland has a 'different' system, I am sure it works well for many. But I wouldn't want everywhere in the UK to have the same system, as not all children are the same.

It does feel very unwelcoming that Scotland's Unis welcome everyone from the EU for free but insist on charging English students £37,000 to gain entry.

If you are unhappy about the tuition fees English students have to pay, blame the British/English government not the Scots. Education is devolved. It’s the Tories in London that set these fees while foisting the responsibility for paying them onto English students. Youngster don’t vote for them so they don’t care. Scotland is not responsible for English Welsh or N.Irish students, and neither are they for ours. Likewise, in the US where states control public universities and state tax payers foot the bills, it is common for state residents to pay lower fees— their media doesn’t present it as an act of hostility but just natural logic. The Scots dont have to follow London’s fee policy and have chosen not to, but unfortunately there’s something called the Barnet formula that means the Scottish government gets money taken away if London cuts spending in England. So paying the cost of Scottish students has meant raiding other parts of the Scottish budget. It’s a struggle, and the govt here are certainly in no position to subsidize the budgets of the other uk countries. Surely no English Welsh or N.Irish person would want to see hospitals or schools closed in Scotland for this. If you don’t like the Tories making your teenagers pay 10s of thousands for education then complaining about Scotland isn’t going to do anything. Re the EU, we have no choice but to let rEU students compete for the same places as Scottish students, this is because of EU law, but the numbers are capped.

The need to fund EU students results in places for Scottsih students being capped - it is more difficult for a Scottish student to get a place at a Scottish university than an English student.

I do think the drinking and partying is dependent upon the individual

ronatheseal I dont have a problem with Scotland giving a few Scottish students subsidised University.

And I actually think charging students in England has been a good thing. If you earn a lot more money because you went to university then you should pay for it.

My point was that it is unequal not very welcoming to charge English students tens of thousands yet allow people from Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia etc in for free.

A perception of being unwelcome is just that, a perception.
The facts, are that EU law regulates who has access to free tuition fees at Scottish universities.
As pp stated, it is the Westminster decision to charge tuition fees in England that has resulted in the differing landscape for English & Scottish students.
I believe if Scottish students attend English universities they are liable for fees.

Different systems, different fee structures.

are they just more conscientious?

The facts, are that EU law regulates who has access to free tuition fees at Scottish universities

Umm, the Scottish 'government' specifically decided to make sure English students had to pay. The EU did NOT force Scotland to specifically charge only English students.

It was a choice and it does make English students feel unwelcome.