Edinburgh University Law - an insider's view

[Aurea]

Hello

I'd be very grateful for any insider information on the Law course and department at University of Edinburgh.

My son has just achieved Highers of 5 As and a B in fifth year and is likely to receive an offer, along with Glasgow. He would probably prefer Edinburgh as a city, but I have heard mildly alarming things about poor student satisfaction, including feedback on work and poor academic support. Do these claims have any grounding?

Many thanks!

Congratulations

I am not an insider - just a lawyer (and an English one to boot so am sure someone more in the know will come along in due course and answer) However my view is that Edinburgh is better regarded than Glasgow.

Student satisfication in my view is one of the worst things to judge a university on as how good students are at having an old moan is never a great measure. It is like asking a 4 year old if they would rather be at home with their mother or at school all day - most would say home. I would go by which types of law firms those who leave end up at. If he does want to be a lawyer look at the kind of Scottish firms where he might work and the younger people there and try to find out which universities they went to.

@xenia

Thank you for your reply.

His ambition is to work for a Magic Circle firm in London, so I guess they may prefer Edinburgh? He is also going to apply to Oxford as a very long shot.

He's very keen on Law (he is currently reading a book by Hart on Jurisprudence as we speak!!) and very determined, so we shall see...

Yes, Oxford first then Edinburgh I would say. here is a list of universities some trainee solicitors went to. www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/law-firms-preferred-universities It will be skewed by which places have a lot more graduates than some smaller universities however.

I htink if he studies a scottish law degree in Edinburgh he then had to do the GDL year after as well as LPC whereas if he does English law in England he just does the LPC thestudentlawyer.com/2013/05/30/law-across-the-border-qualifying-in-england-with-a-scots-law-degree/

The GDL is expensive if you are not sponsored. Is Law at Edinburgh already 4 years? This is the long way round for Magic Circle. If he doesn’t get Oxbridge, consider Durham, Bristol or UCL.

Forgot to mention Nottingham. Always maximise chances!

Thank you very much for your input.

As we are Scottish, we fortunately don't need to pay fees for Scottish universities, so an English university would have to be considerably better to warrant the additional fees. Although granted Scottish degrees take an extra year to make up for the fact the kids have a year less schooling.

So Scottish - no charge, then the GDL year then the LPC hopefully sponsored by a London law firm might be the way to go. So 2 extra years of stuyding (the 4th Scottish year plus the GDL) i.e. not earning £40k a year i.e. £80k gross... you might find is actually better off with a student loan than losing two years of income buyt that is assuming he gets a good job and is sponsored at law school - massive ifs given most law students don't achieve that.

Thank you Xenia

At the moment he's planning to apply to Edinburgh, Glasgow, Oxford, Aberdeen and Dundee. I'll speak to him about possibly adding another English option. He's not against working in Scotland, however, but there are less opportunities here.

So much to decide for an almost 17 year old and he only has until October before he applies.

Lots of food for thought. Thanks again!

Benefit of going to Dundee is that he can be dually qualified as they offer Scottish/ English law

The London traineeships are fiercely competitive. They also take a good number who don’t have law degrees at all. Can he do the GDL in Scotland? My DD did it in London and of course you have to commute or live there. That’s another expense. Some people do pay for their own GDL, and then get a traineeship for the LPC, and others are sponsored by their employers right from the start. If they are sponsored from the start, Magic Circle have contracts with the providers. I believe that’s the London based law schools so you might want to check this out.

Of course he really only has two university choices so if Oxford is top (and even if it was MFL or History or Classics it wouldn’t matter) he has to decide what’s second. Another English university (probably Durham) or Edinburgh? The other three won’t matter.

That’s interesting about Dundee which is s high ranking Law school. However it only requires ABB (for English etc students) for the dual course which is very low for a top law school. That’s much lower than similar highly rated Law degrees in England so I’m not sure how it gets rated so highly. I cannot see that employers would rate this as good as Durham for example. It’s a bit too easy to get in.

Hi Aurea, my eldest son studied Law at Edinburgh 8 years ago, and then did his diploma year there too. We’re Scottish and his dilemma was Glasgow or Edinburgh. Since I was a Glasgow grad I hoped he’d pick there but he chose Edinburgh and our experience , his and ours, was positive.

One of the things as a parent I particularly liked about Edinburgh was their attention and value placed on their personal statement. This was in stark contrast to Glasgow who openly said they never read them. This looking at a person and not just grades was backed up by support if my son needed it for extra time for a medical condition. So good support if needed and a well regarded degree in the profession.

In terms of the city it is a lovely size to get around and Pollock Halls a great start to first year. Our son had a great 5 years in the law department at Edinburgh and he’s been a practising solicitor ever since.

This of course is just our experience but it was a good one.

Thank you all.

I'm really appreciative of all your insight as we have no legal professionals in our family at all.

Aberdeen also does a dual qualifying degree but this is our local Uni and not very exciting for my son who wishes to spread his wings a little.

We did visit Durham, but he wasn't particularly taken by the set up. Of course, he has set his heart on Oxford , but the chances are slim although he will be considered as he has achieved the required grades in his Highers.

I think the crux of the matter is: does he wish to work in England or Scotland? I would prefer Scotland as I would miss seeing him dreadfully, but we do have lots of family in the south of England (where I am from) so he won't be totally alone. However I'm aware more opportunities are in England and he is quite ambitious (think Harvey Specter )

Glasgow is now showing as number two in the complete university guide league table (above Oxford) while Edinburgh has lost ground and is at 10th, whereas Aberdeen is 5th. I don't know how much attention to pay to these league tables though.

Would you consider reputation to be the most important asset then? His interest particularly lies in
Jurisprudence which is why he is so keen on the Oxford course.

Thanks all!

Yes, whether he will work in England or Scotland is the crux of it. I have know Scottish lawyers who qualified there however and later moved to England then qualified here so people do move between the two later. (One London US law firm just put up second year trainee wages of £60k this week apparently - there is certainly probably high pay in London but then also higher costs).

For England the list on that linke I put about www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/law-firms-preferred-universities is not too bad for law. I would also go by as BB suggests which are hardest to get into as that is a kind of economically pure test. Law firms want the very brightest with the highest grades so the places those people go with the highest to enter grade requirements tends to end up being the best choice (which is not to say people from other places cannot sometimes make it through but it becomes harder).

This is one London law firm's guidance for Scottish students by the way with some time limits in it - all students need to note the year ahead you have to apply for jobs in law not wait until you are about to graduate by which time it is too late. They need a diary and a timetable working years backwards.

One option would be to get a job with one of the bigger Scottish firms who have a London office and that gets a London experience during the traineeship (and possible job when he qualifies).

I wouldn't get too hung up on the English qualification/Scottish qualified issue. I qualified in Scotland and did the QLTT and am now dual qualified. It was fairly straightforward to do the Scottish to English transfer. I am not sure how easy it is the other way round.

Sorry that didn't answer the original question but hopefully useful anyway!

He should be applying to English universities if he wants to practice in England. Scotland is a different jurisdiction. Of course he can always still work in London but the competition for training contracts in magic cricle/silver circle firms is insane. Having a Scottish degree will be a disadvantage. The thing you have to bare in mind is that English law degrees are really cheap and can be done on a student loan. If he dies make it into a magic circle firm the fees won't be an issue for him.

Hello - i studied law at Edinburgh years ago (am not practicing through personal choice!). The student satisfaction ranking is now battering my alma mater in the league tables but this isn’t a department specific issue. I found it a positive experience, was happy with feedback, and Old College is a beautiful location to study in!

The jurisdiction point is key -it will determine where he trains. The QLTT will come a way down the line. He could do the gdl but that would be a long route to qualification. If he wants to work for the MC in London he would be better off in England.

(I'm an English lawyer but have worked in a Scottish law firm.)

Thank you all for your replies. It's a lot of info to take in full of different paths and possibilities.

He's away to the Scottish Uni Open Days soon which should clarify things.

He is under the impression that Edinburgh in particular attracts Oxbridge rejects, which in my mind is not necessarily a bad thing. When he was visiting Oxford for three days on an Open Day programme he was the only state school pupil there (or at least he spoke to no others). Many were from top tier private schools who listed Edinburgh as one of their UCAS choices

I know a lot of Scottish lawyers who trained and qualified in Scotland working in England without doing the QLTT. Lots of us have even reached the dizzy heights of partner. Employment/banking
/oil and gas and corporate are full of us

Aberdeen/Dundee do not offer courses that allow you to be "fuel quakifued". You only qualify once you have done an appropriate law degree and post head qualification (D L.P in Scotland and L PC in England), carried out your traineeship and then signed off and put on the roll of either the Law Soc of England & Wales or Scotland. If you want to duel qualify, you do that post-qualification by sitting the QLTT. Not many solicitors bother - I've worked in house at a international oil & gas co and a major retailer and in PP in a Scottish big 5 as was then a UK top 10. I can count on one and a half hands the number of lawyers who had done the QLTT

Your son should do some work experience (if he hasn't already) and speak to lawyers about what they do and try and get an idea of what type of law he wants to do. If he thinks oil and gas, Aberdeen is excellent (went there myself) for the simple reason that a lot of the corporate and commercial tutors who come into take the tutorials work in oil and gas themselves and you can make v good connections.

I worked as a part time tutor in a different discipline and we were always on the look out for bright students. I was also involved in admissions (inter viewing for traineeshi ps) when in PP (in England) and results a nd extra curricular activities are still the most important thing along with evidence of self discipline and self motivation - 2:1 minimum is a must. There is probably a slight snobbery about Dundee still amongst Scottish lawyers which is unfair Personally, I would do the undergrad in Scotland as I think the fact it is a 4 year, vocational qualification is academically more preferable.

Huge thanks @gobbolinothewitchscat

This very useful. Ideally he'd like to do commercial law, which I understand is a sensible option. He's had two lots of work experience so far.

Have you heard of any Scottish Law grads getting a TC with a magic circle firm after their DLP?

Aberdeen is a good option but we just live down the road so he wants to spread his wings further. May I ask which you would pick out of Glasgow and Edinburgh?

Many thanks

If he is hoping for Magic Circle then Oxford, Edinburgh and Aberdeen. Glasgow and Dundee are not regarded as highly at the moment.

I think it is possible to get very hung up on jurisdiction but actually it won’t matter that much as you can practice in either England or Scotland without having fully qualified there and you can always dual qualify at a later stage if you need to.

I went to Edinburgh and practice in Scotland but about 75% of my work is governed by English law. That’s because the law across my area (and lots of other specialist areas) is similar.

Just to add:

While the law degree at Edinburgh is excellent, the Diploma (the year between uni and traineeship) at Edinburgh is bureaucratic and wasteful and probably accounts for student dissatisfaction. The Diploma could definitely be done at Glasgow, where the course emphasis is not about presence on campus but leaves students time to earn.

@quodaultra

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

For prestige and future employability then, is the LLB or the diploma more important? I hadn't thought of my son switching institution at this point.

Thanks once again.

Iirc, doesn't Edinburgh only do English law as their LLB? (Just in case the Scottish vs English was a deciding factor)