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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Would you - Lower RG uni or Non RG but high on league tables?

91 replies

Demeldark · 03/08/2018 19:48

All other things being equal. Is it better to apply for a lower down RG university of a higher up the league table non RG?

Like I said all other things being equal.

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ErrolTheDragon · 04/08/2018 20:55

it's not a compulsory element of the course

Maybe it's unusual, but DDs course has a requirement that they've done (I think) at least 8 weeks in total relevant placements before they can start their 3rd year (failing which they have to take a gap year and do it before they can return). I think they were given a list of possibilities, not sure if there was more help for anyone who didn't find something.

Blaablaablaa · 04/08/2018 21:01

For some courses there will be a compulsory placement - usually courses linked to professions or professionally accredited.

What I meant to say was it's not compulsory across the sector ( apologies, it's been a long day!) This makes it difficult to get stats that cover all uni's and courses.

However, some courses that are advertised as sandwich courses will strongly recommend students undertake the placement but it is possible to not do it.

Demeldark · 04/08/2018 21:01

Surely it would be easy for university depts. To show nos of students on the placement path per course, versus numbers who actually obtained a placement, minus those who voluntarily decided to opt out.

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Demeldark · 04/08/2018 21:13

'Should be easy' rather.

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Blaablaablaa · 04/08/2018 21:16

Individual departments could ( and most will do) but it wouldn't be uniform across all institutions and would mean the data wouldn't be comparable. .... therefore meaningless.

Uni's have to be soooo careful about the information they publish and if it's not deemed necessary they won't include it

shortsaint · 04/08/2018 21:24

Blaablaablaa well said. Choose the subject then location then Uni.

I am connected to a RG Uni. Not as an academic. God the kids are bright but DULL. All about what next, what can it do for me.

So glad I went to a .. God forbid ... College of HE ... 30 years ago. I got my degree, had a blast, have a good career, made friends for life. Oh how I wish it was like that for my kids.

Blaablaablaa · 04/08/2018 21:30

@short it makes me so sad that the importance the student experience is dwindling.....I understand why it is but I think it's a real shame.

I'm currently doing some research on the marketisation of higher education and the impact this has on student decisions.....the Introduction of tuition fees (among other things) has fundamentally changed how people chose a uni. I'm not sure it's all entirely positive either.

Ta1kinpeace · 04/08/2018 21:40

It would be a VERY BAD THING if courses were linked to placements

University is about learning and development, not job hunting

I have never ever in my professional life used my degree.
When I went to my 30 year meet up, less than 1/3 of us had used our degree subject
because that is NOT the POINT of a good degree

One of my kids is half way through a degree, the other is about to start one
I'd be VERY disappointed if they allowed that subject choice to limit their career options

Demeldark · 04/08/2018 21:46

blaablaa - I'm not understanding why it won't be comparable. Can you explain a bit more pls? perhaps i'm simplifying it too much eg 100 students registered for BSc 4yr Sandwich course in Computer science. 10 Students changed their minds and swapped over to the 3yr full time, out of the remaining 90 students only 30 managed to secure a placement, compare this percentage with the same thing scenario at other universities for the same course....

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Blaablaablaa · 04/08/2018 22:02

You are simplifying it. Massively. The placement process isn't uniform across all universities - not even across subjects in one institution!

The process is far more complex. For example, my institution states that for a sandwich year to be counted and assessed students must complete a minimum of 44 weeks of placement. This causes huge issues for some students - especially in the arts and media where placements are often unpaid or short term contracts. This can result in many students opting out of the placement year and getting experience elsewhere. It also causes issues for students who need to work for an income as some placements in some sectors don't pay well ( or at all!)
A uni not too far from us counts 30 weeks.....ive even heard of a uni that states 24. It makes sector wide comparisons very difficult.

What you need to do is speak to individual institutions about there particular placement policies and procedures. Ask them what support is on offer....and work out what will suit you. How placements are managed varies between institutions - sometimes even between departments.

Blaablaablaa · 04/08/2018 22:03

*their

Ta1kinpeace · 04/08/2018 22:14

Demeldark
Why the obsession with "placements" ?
Many, many degrees do not touch such things with a bargepole
because they are not core to the principles of a degree

Demeldark · 04/08/2018 22:20

I understand what you mean by conflicts within the process requirements now. Those questions will be very useful.

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Demeldark · 04/08/2018 22:23

Ta1kinpeace - Its not an obsession just a preference for the degree DS wants to study. It has many benefits if he can secure one. He wants to study Computer science and so its an added bonus to see what he is studying in practice. Of course many degrees do not do placements, why would they?

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Blaablaablaa · 04/08/2018 22:29

It's also useful to ask where previous students have undertaken placements.... usually if they've got links to major companies they like to shout about it.

Piggywaspushed · 05/08/2018 08:13

Out of interest how does one, if not in academia, find out which universities have an 'excellent reputation in a particular field'? I sort fo wonder if this is why the RG and unis with obvious longstanding reputations such as Bath and St Andrews thrive becuase the rest of the information is not necessarily widley known, so people just know 'that's an ex poly ' or is a bit of a shithole.

I am a teacher and teach sixth form and I don't feel info about the relative strengths and qualities is known so how are we meant to advise. I can tell you what unis had a reputation for one of my subjects 10 or so years ago but have no idea if that has changed.

I have about a gazillion prospectuses at home at the mo for DS1 and can't perceive huge difference between the unis for the subject he claims to be is interested in. So, it's no wonder unis make claims about work placements and connections to employers .Even though instinctively I agree with ta1k that this is not what uni should be about, increasingly this is the way students and the media/parents view the purpose of higher academic study, perhaps most especially with the focus shifting so much towards STEM, business and comp sci.

CountFosco · 05/08/2018 08:35

@MinaPaws I'm interested - what did the mature students at the poly put that was so much more impressive? Surely mature students will have worked any way, whereas 18-20 yr olds have done less.

Well, yes, it is the work experience a lot of the time. But also, I work for a company based in the NE. Although we have our share of MC graduates that come from all over we are very aware that only 10% of the local kids go to university. That 10% tends to come from the tiny MC who do end up very advantaged (our 2 most local state secondary schools send about 10 kids each to Oxbridge every year, but they have an intake from the leafiest part of town).

So locally there are a lot of very very bright working class kids don't look at higher education until they are older because they come from a background that can't face the debt and don't see the benefits of a degree. They are hard working because they know working for us is a fantastic opportunity, more mature than a typical graduate and often have something medical in their work history so there's a story there that means you know they are really interested in what we do. And the local universities do work closely with us to create course content that is relevant so they come with a good understanding of what we do.

We also have an excellent apprentice scheme that leads to a degree in 5 years and the kids are paid and have their fees paid so finish with no debt. Historically (pre university expansion in the 80s) we've taken on even more people straight from school and that is increasing again.

@BubbleBuddy I'm not quite sure why you are so angry about me thinking musical achievement is irrelevant for a placement with a Pharma company. May I remind you I read a bucketload of CVs from the same university in the same format and none of them had any distinguishing points because they had all done music, sport, DoE and a gap year, which is why I said they were MC, they all laughed at me at work when I said it because we all know we're doing the same thing to our own kids.

Anyway, to correct some of your wilder accusation I myself come from a MC background with a long family history of attending ancient universities, I do not have the proverbial chip on my shoulder. We do recruit a lot from RG universities, e.g. I've worked with some brilliant students from Durham, Manchester, UCL and the Scottish universities. We pay our students well, they are with us for a year, are valuable members of our project teams, and regularly return to us after finishing their degrees or PhDs. My employer does not allow people to interview unless they have had recruitment training, and all job adverts include a job description and person spec that funnily enough does not say 'must have grade 8 viola'.

Oh, and humble. I'm sure we've all had to deal with people who think they are too important to do a crucial but boring aspect of their job. Working in a busy 5S lab requires people who will wash up and put away their stuff at the end of the day, take part in the lab tidy up, who will fill in the paperwork, and yes, listens to people who have been there longer and are saying 'you need to do that in the fumehood'. In my experience the very best students are those who are smart enough to learn from others' experience. That's what collaboration and team work is about, recognising and acknowledging the strengths of others and not thinking you know it all. Humble is not subservient.

And FWIW for science we don't necessarily want only 'rounded' individuals, the quiet nerdy girl who is on the spectrum and will work away at a problem and come up with a brilliant solution is as useful to us as the terribly MC chap who will charm the customers' moneymen.

dingit · 05/08/2018 08:49

Piggy, as just a mere parent, we googled the best universities for the course ( engineering). The top two Cambridge and Imperial were out of her league, so we visited and applied to the next 8 on list.
Hopefully it's worked. One year in, she's happy with her choice. Smile

dingit · 05/08/2018 08:49

Piggy, as just a mere parent, we googled the best universities for the course ( engineering). The top two Cambridge and Imperial were out of her league, so we visited and applied to the next 8 on list.
Hopefully it's worked. One year in, she's happy with her choice. Smile

MinaPaws · 05/08/2018 09:03

@CountFosco - it's true that so many extremely bright wokring class people get sidelined until later on in life. It's good to know a major company has an eye out for the contributions they make.

10 each a year to Oxbridge from both local state schoos? That's pretty astonishing too. Sounds like a good area to raise kids. (Where are you? Grin.)

DS is looking into pharmacy. He's standard MC, Grade 8 music etc etc but he was telling me about apprenticeships at one pharma company (East UK) that pays for apprentices to pick up degrees, all the way up to PhD, so they work as they learn. That sounded like a fantastic way to get qualified if you are from a background that can't do the debt. I think they didn't even need to have done science A levels. Just show the right levels of aptitude and interest.

Piggywaspushed · 05/08/2018 09:11

dingit I do think that might be easier for some subjects than others. As a teacher, I am naturally a bit wary of league tables!

CountFosco · 05/08/2018 09:41

10 each a year to Oxbridge from both local state schoos? That's pretty astonishing too.

The NE has ghettos of very MC areas where we're all bleeding heart liberals. My kids are at a primary school where the parents are all scientists, engineers, HCPs, solicitors. There is no longer a private school in town and as a very left wing town lots of people believe in the state system (lots still bus their kids to the nearest private school as well). So for the schools there's a perfect storm of lots of MC parents who are very interesting in their kids education but don't go privatesquashed into a small area and because house prices are low there's a lot of disposable cash for spending on extracurricula activities. As far as Oxbridge is concerned the cynic in me thinks they take kids from these schools so they can tick the 'intake from a deprived area' box but still get kids that will 'fit' easily into the Oxbridge world. And obviously the schools work hard to keep that link.

BubblesBuddy · 05/08/2018 16:14

Why am I a “daft sod” for suggesting that some ordinary children might have really pushed themselves to learn an instrument? If an application is read properly, you can tell where a DC went to school and maybe where they have tried to excel in more than academics. It’s simply fair to read everything and not blame students for genetic forms.

I just love the language that’s used on MN. Simply rude!

BubblesBuddy · 05/08/2018 17:59

The definitions of humble: servile, submissive, meek, modest, subservient, unpresuming, unassertive, low ranking and lowly! My English is still pretty good, thank you Count.

titchy · 05/08/2018 18:10

Why am I a “daft sod” for suggesting that some ordinary children might have really pushed themselves to learn an instrument?

Lol. You really have no idea about disadvantage do you! You think it means parents letting you just get on with playing your guitar. I'm talking, like most others, about kids who's parents can't afford food let alone an
Instrument and lessons. Kids who have to look after younger siblings, cook and clean, then do homework. Kids with parents barely literate enough to fill in a form let alone agree to apply for a discretionary fund to buy an instrument. Kids who's parent would sell their shoes and instrument to buy crack.

Appropriate username - you do live in a bubble.