Advice for DD re dropping French and Oxbridge?

[Polynerd]

DD is coming to the end of Y10. She is working hard and doing well, predicted 7-9 in everything... except French. She has a real block about it and despite trying her best is predicted 3/4.
We are considering asking school to let her drop French as I worry that getting her up to the level where she can do the higher level paper will adversely impact her other studies. If she does foundation level she can get 5 max.
However she wants to apply for Oxbridge and I don't know what their view would be. I don't think they require Ebacc but what would their view be of not having an MFL? Also she would have 9 GCSEs instead of 10. Would that bother them? Would they know that everybody else from the school had 10? TIA!

Amongst other statements re GCSEs, Oxford says:
Candidates do not need to take the English Baccalaureate to be able to apply to Oxford. We recommend that candidates take those GCSE subjects that they enjoy the most and are confident in achieving good grades in.
www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses/entrance-requirements?wssl=1

What their take is on taking subjects in which you will do well, by abandoning one that you won't part way through (as opposed to only starting out with, IYSWIM), they don't say- perhaps best to contact the admissions office and ask?

9 GCSE's is fine for Oxbridge, as is her not having an MFL. Whereas getting a 3 or 4 in one subject (even if all her other grades were very high) is not at all fine.

Having said that, it's a shame not to have a language and the 'block' might be worth investigating. Dyslexia? Poor teaching? Missed some early fundamentals? You could also try getting a tutor and then making a last minute deduction following y11 mocks.

It sounds like in this situation it may be best to drop french.
However, I'm not sure if school will let her (don't shoot the messenger by the way people). MFL counts in a category for Progress 8 as part of the EBacc performance measure (different from the Ebacc group of subjects for students because computer science, for example, doesn't count ebacc for students but does for schools).
Schools are judged Progress 8 by how many points they get in set categories . An empty category scores a 0. That means your DC not doing French has an impact on whole school performance. If she is doing history and geography then that might persuade the school that she could balance out another student's weaker history/ geography, though it's unlikely to fully compensate for her missing MFL.

Some schools are changing how they enter for MFL but it throws up a number of issues.

Without knowing how the school do things, it's hard to say what the outcome would be.

She's been tested for dislexia and isn't. The teaching is fairly shit IMO and I have found a tutor but sadly she is also fairly shit. Don't know whether they would let her drop it, it's a grammar and they mandate three sciences and an MFL, but on the other hand surely an Oxbridge entrance is worth more to them than an Ebacc?

It’s a long way to go before your DD is accepted to Oxbridge (and lots are rejected) so they’re unlikely to take that as an argument over damaging this year’s league tables.

In addition, students dropping subjects merely because they are doing badly in it:
A) causes a flood of similar requests which are then harder to reject if they’ve done it for another student (damaging league tables further), especially if, as you’ve said, the language teaching is crap so there will be other students feeling the same way.
B) causes issues with what to do with that student for the timetabled lessons they will no longer be attending
C) Gives students the idea that the solution to doing badly is to give up rather than work harder.

You can ask the school, but bear the above in mind!

If the answer is no, then there are lots of online resources that she could be getting to grips with over the summer to try to improve her grasp of the language, and ask the school what they will be doing to ensure that your DD reaches her target grade.

Dd2 dropped a non-ebacc subject at the start of y11 (she was doing a seond mfl as a twilight option, and dropped a daytime subject to balance it out - school wouldn't let her do it at the start of y10 but a year later other people were also dropping subjects and it wasn't an issue).

Dd3 is now coming to the end of y10 at the same school (not a grammar) and we've just this week negotiated for her to drop her mfl. She has health issues and crappy attendance, and it's been really tough to keep up with the language work. She actually did ok in her end of year exam (5!) but homeworks take forever, and it just doesn't seem worth persevering at this point. Some extra time in school will be more useful to her.

Ebacc/progress 8 is no use to anyone apart from the school - her head of year shrugged and said, "don't worry, that's our problem not yours" - and only UCL has any MFL requirement, which you can fulfil in your first year there. So I'm absolutely not worried about her university applications.

I would suggest having a look at the entry requirements for any courses she's currently interested in, at 2 or 3 universities, and putting your mind at rest.

And I would certainly suggest talking to the school - but perhaps go in with the attitude that you're asking them what they can do to help her improve, rather than just asking for her to drop it out of the blue!

8-9 GCSEs is becoming far more the norm from many schools, including in the independent sector, due to the changes in the new exams.

I wouldn't worry about that aspect.

The whole EBAC thing is more for a way to assess state secondaries. The universities, in the whole, don't care. They just want the grades.

I tend to think that, for the most competitive subjects, Oxbridge may not be quite so generous as the statement suggests. 9 GCSEs is fine but they would need to be very high grades in what she does want to study. There is no guarantee the school thinks she is Oxbridge material either. All the young people I know who have nailed a place do have the full breadth of subjects at GCSE. Unless they are a maths genius!

DD's school have a lot of oxbridge candidates. Most students are now doing 9 GCSEs. They are all still predicts to go to oxbridge and other similar level universities. They've had people come into the school to talk to the students and have stated it's perfectly acceptable and won't cause an issue.

They very much want quality rather than quantity.

I tend to think the quality over quantity line is overused Aragog because clearly a student who achieves highly across more subjects is demonstrating something of value to Oxbridge, namely an ability to juggle a heavy workload and a degree of diversity in their thinking skills, which can be useful across a range of subjects (possibly there are some exceptions as Bubbles has suggested).

I would say wait until GCSE grades are in before counting on a student being 'predicted' Oxbridge. My own DC are all bright but never considered Oxbridge as a definite possibility until after results were in. I tend to think the school might think a student a bit ahead of themselves to say it's either Oxbridge or MFL, the school's choice. Also, a student should actually be able to handle a MFL at GCSE if they really are Oxbridge level, since languages are as much a science as an art.

My DD struggled with mfls and would have liked to drop them in year 10. There was no culture of dropping subjects at her school and I am rather pro pressing on with things that you find hard ( its relative she was a very successful student). She was looking for some sort of key to unlock French and Spanish but of course it wasn't there. There is no magic to mfls , you need to learn the vocabulary , grammar and irregularities. It is memory work. Once it is all planted then conversation, reading, films and tv are unlocked. All of a sudden the questions can be answered and it all becomes clear. If she is a good student and has time for all her subjects I would consider pressing on a bit further into the curriculum before giving up. My DD looked as if she would get Cs as late as Easter yr 11 but got A*s .
As an aside having a MFL is not essential for uni entrance but can help and it is very early days for your DD to be thinking about her choices.

As an aside having a MFL is not essential for uni entrance but can help

Evidence?

No need for an MFL at all for uni, inc Oxbridge. Way too early to suggest Ox is an option though - you've indicated 7-9 as expected grades. An Ox candidate would be 9s with the odd 8, so you may be over estimating. School also very unlikely to agree for the reasons noble gave.

Not sure why it's a problem though - it's just rote learning. Dull, but relatively doable for a bright kid.

I meant it can broaden choices eg 2 of my DD's friends chose main subject + language at top universities rather than single honours at solid mid range institutions.
No need to think about broadening choices if you know what you want to do of course.

Thanks for all your comments. I would take issue with those who state that someone who is bright enough for Oxbridge should be good at everything at GCSE level. Some of the most brilliant people I know are very poor at things unconnected to their discipline. That aside, the interest in Oxbridge is hers, not mine, and I just want to ensure that she is not closing doors by decisions made at this stage.

What subject/s is she interested in applying for OP?

I don't think anyone is saying a student with potential to get an offer from Oxbridge should be good at every single subject but it would be unlikely that they couldn't handle an MFL at GCSE to the extent of falling much short of an A in old money. It doesn't augur especially well, either the inability to master it to that level or the desire to give up ahead of time. She'll probably be fine with it if she gives it a little bit more time, regardless of whether she has a mathematical brain or an artsy one.

I meant it can broaden choices eg 2 of my DD's friends chose main subject + language at top universities rather than single honours at solid mid range institutions.

1. This kid doesn't want to do French for GCSE, let alone A level or A degree, so that's not really relevant.

1. It's not easier to get into a joint honours course, if that's what you're trying to imply.

you've indicated 7-9 as expected grades. An Ox candidate would be 9s with the odd 8, so you may be over estimating

You generally talk a lot of sense titchy, but I don't think this is going to be right tbh. Current/previous advice has always talked about As and A stars, which wouldn't rule out 7s.

Just looked at their websites -

From Oxford:
successful applicants typically have a high proportion of A and A* grades (7,8 and 9)

From Cambridge:
most students who apply have at least four or five As or As at GCSE (7 is considered equivalent to an A in the new grading structure; and 8 and 9 is considered equivalent to an A)

Yes I also very much doubt that the average Joe at Oxford is suddenly going to have to get much higher GCSE grades. There's no reason why entry standards will suddenly rocket.

That's bearing in mind the fact that the Oxbridge websites are generally encouraging, for good reason, but to the extent of sometimes giving a sense that it's easy to get in, which it isn't really.

That's bearing in mind the fact that the Oxbridge websites are generally encouraging - true!

Sorry goodbye but I can't agree. I have a PhD in theoretical physics and I was bloody awful at chemistry at school and still struggle to understand it now. And that is much more connected to my discipline than French is to history or engineering (DDs current thinking on possible degrees).

History or engineering - gotta love 15 year olds Mine told me earlier this year that she was either going to be an engineer or a drama teacher

Try to make sure she's not to hung up on one or two unis. Oxbridge is a particular teaching style and much depends on interviews, where they look for a particular personality type. The grades are part of it, but it's much wider than that.

Sadly you see some kids who do get overly focused, don't get in, then delay and try following year and screw up their education or feel that anything else is second best and they haven't achieved, which makes their uni experience very negative and makes them feel like failures.

Just make sure she has a balanced view on this. Right now she should be focusing more on what to study not where.

She's not really. It's just an idea and I don't want her to make any choices that close off avenues at the moment, but she's pretty interested in Durham, York and Cardiff as well. She'll be reet.