Advice for DD re dropping French and Oxbridge?

[Polynerd]

DD is coming to the end of Y10. She is working hard and doing well, predicted 7-9 in everything... except French. She has a real block about it and despite trying her best is predicted 3/4.
We are considering asking school to let her drop French as I worry that getting her up to the level where she can do the higher level paper will adversely impact her other studies. If she does foundation level she can get 5 max.
However she wants to apply for Oxbridge and I don't know what their view would be. I don't think they require Ebacc but what would their view be of not having an MFL? Also she would have 9 GCSEs instead of 10. Would that bother them? Would they know that everybody else from the school had 10? TIA!

Well let's do that agreeing to disagree thing OP :)

I still maintain she should be able to scrape an A/7 in French if she's reasonably bright.

That's good,

Ultimately yes it's going to come down to her as levels, her gcse results, and her a level predictions and then actuals as well as her interview etc.

Yes they will know she studied one gcse less, so will have had an easier workload than the other kids who managed ten plus , enabling her to focus on the other subjects more. The question clearly will be why she did not persevere and over come, simply quit. But there are too many other factors and a very long road for her to go down before she gets there.

It won't close the door for her, and if she excels in everything else all the way through, then it's a minor question, but there is no doubt by doing less GCSEs than the average kid, it makes her workload lighter and gives her more time to focus on other subjects, so an advantage.

I really think it's fine.

I tend to think that, for the most competitive subjects, Oxbridge may not be quite so generous as the statement suggests. 9 GCSEs is fine but they would need to be very high grades in what she does want to study.

This is sort of true - high grades in what you want to study is a good idea - but it has nothing to do with dropping MFL or having 9 GCSEs. You could have 14 GCSEs including however many languages, and you would still need very high grades in what you want to study. The number of GCSEs and the MFL are not very relevant.

But Goodbye you are essentially saying that someone can't be considered "bright" unless they can get an A in everything! My mum was a professor and internationally renowned in her field and she got an E in one of her A levels!

Polynerd both you and your mother are clearly exceptionally gifted academically but it's worth pointing out that genes play funny tricks and there's no guarantee for the current generation.

Times and syllabuses and university entrance have all moved on and a current Grade A/7 should be relatively easy for a prospective Oxbridge candidate. I'm not sure that a mother matriculating several decades ago (the sixties?) with an E at A level has very much bearing on the required level of ability to bag an A/7 in the modern GCSE. Several of mine were not natural linguists but managed an A* with little fuss (I'm aware the specs have changed, but even so).

I'm not talking about genetics. I'm talking about the nature of intelligence. I'm very pleased for your kids and their A*s, but their n=1 is not relevant to my thesis, which is that having an intellectual weak spot doesn't mean that you can't be exceptionally brilliant at another academic area. I am not claiming that my daughter is exceptionally brilliant, rather I am trying to make a general point.

It would be curious to be such a polymath that you were predicted a place at Oxbridge for either Engineering or History, whichever took your fancy, but not to be able to manage even an A/7 in French. I'm struggling to think of even a single friend or school peer of the DC who have got an Oxbridge offer yet dropped lower than an A in French (this is going back over a stretch of ten consecutive years). A fair few at school have got Bs or lower but not Oxbridge offerees (not sure about all the Oxbridge applicants, there are too many and I don't know each and every grade, but they're not especially relevant).

Oops sorry you didn't saying she was predicted a place, I was muddling things up with a comment Aragog made (just checked back).

I would add though (because of having checked back and seen her type of school) that if she's at a grammar, it will look worse if she doesn't have a MFL than if she was at a non selective.

Polynerd I agree with goodbyestranger. GCSE MFLs do not require major linguistic ability to get a reasonable mark. Some effort and repetition for the memorising of vocab and grammar plus a little bit of logic for understanding grammar.

Or rather, you didn't saying

MFL GCSE have gone from 60% coursework, with that 60% divided into 4 bits spread out, and practised to death, to 25% coursework now. I think these new 1-9 GCSEs are going to be a fair bit more demanding.

And I'm not sure that basically implying that the OP's dd is either lazy or unintelligent is particularly helpful!

My ds did German GCSE last year. He managed an A after getting pretty much full marks in the coursework and then a mediocre mark in the exam. He said to me just a few days ago that dd1, who did her German GCSE 5 years ago, can speak better German than him. If he were doing it this year, I doubt he'd get an A. Sometimes people have weaknesses, shock horror!

My DS has a specific learning difficulty which means he finds maths very challenging as well as other subjects such as Chemistry and French. He excels at English, History, RS. It is definitely possible for bright children to have weaknesses as my DS is proof of that.

AtlaoftheJuli the old style GCSE coursework allowed shortcut memorising of chunks of text to get reasonable marks. That required some effort and a reasonable short term memory of course but not much foundation in actually using a MFL. As yikesanotherbooboo said there is no magic key to MFLs apart from working out the best way to get vocab and grammar to stick in the memory with written and aural exposure. Like playing an instrument this needs frequent repetition and can't be done without building up over a period of time.

Some bright DCs have poorer memories but still do well at analytical subjects. Perhaps the OP's DD is like that. However I suspect that many bright DCs who have 'a weakness' in MFL GCSE and will find the new GCSE harder over-rely on short term memory learning as repetition for longer term memory is boring and time consuming.

OP, apps like Memrise and Duolinguo can help (for different reasons).

It seems to me that anyone without a specific learning difficulty who couldn't get their head down and manage a decent mark in any subject at GCSE might not be Oxbridge material.....

You say you have a tutor and she's not very good- surely the answer to that is get a better one? Or sign up for an online course?

Yes, send, that's the point I was making. The old MFL GCSEs were easier to do well in than these new ones will be. So everyone scoffing that anyone with half a brain cell can get a good mark in them might not be right this year. Yes, there will be about the same proportion getting 7+ as A+, but it might not be the same kids!

I don't think anyone with half a brain cell could get a 7 at GCSE MFL. I think anyone aiming realistically at Oxbridge could.

My DD sat her GCSEs last summer, she has mainly A*, but a C in Spanish.
She’s very used to memorising things - is currently a Drama scholar at a specialist school. But MFL she found really difficult, as do I (and DH and both her older brothers, who also did brilliantly in GCSEs except for MFL always the outlier).
I’ve always been sorry their school didn’t offer Latin, as that was the only language I ever found easy!
Perhaps Oxbridge will require all level 9s at GCSE, but perhaps not. I’m hopeful one outlier won’t damage her chances. If it does then it’s not the right place for her. Plenty of other universities will give her a chance I’m sure.

I do think there is a valid point being made about doing a language at gcse. My daughter is also very poor at languages and still managed an A* in French at gcse. It's less about being linguistically capable at this level.

The school will advise on dropping it, and also advise on recommended unis.

DD4 has done the new GCSE this year and my other seven DC did the old style one with the older ones of those doing the GCSE before it became the rather odd exam that Atia and sendsummer describe. So I'm au fait with all the various types of exam, I'm not confusing new for old or anything like that.

Oxbridge will not ask for all 9s or it will have very empty colleges and the social life for students would be dire - possibly one or two other people to speak to in college, on current MN/ DfE forecasts, and that's if all those with a full house choose to go to Oxbridge - some may not .

Yes Bluntness especially if the student goes to a grammar. The assumption (however misplaced) is that all teachers at grammars are incredibly good, so that won't be seen as an excuse. Not much licence is given to grammar school DC in the Oxbridge context, even though some of the bias is myth (not trying to provoke you Bertrand, just saying they don't all equate to top indies).

Why retain a shit tutor?

Dd got 11 a* at gcse and applied for Oxbridge but didn't get an interview. Your dd may have 9 and get an interview who knows.
Don't rely on getting into Oxbridge.

Oxbridge students do regularly include people who didn't get straight As at GCSE.

They're also not necessarily the same people who make brilliant professors, though.

She should do her best and enjoy her education wherever it might lead. DD didn't get into the local selective indys at 11. At GCSE got 2xA,6A,3B. Not as good as projected but enough to get into an excellent 6th form. Dropped out due to illness, started over following september. Had an OK repeat yr12. Diagnosed with ADD at the end of yr12. Once medicated MH healed and the upward trajectory began. Applied Oxford and rejected. Accepted a big name. Kept on working. Got 3A A'Levels dropping 6 or 7 UMS points overall. Decided in 20 mins to go for Oxbridge again with a change of subject. Got Cambridge and a big beast college.

Success doesn't always come in straight lines. DD's words minutes after A'Level results "if I don't try for Oxbridge again, I'll spend the rest of my life windering if I could have done it"

Let them learn. Let them fly. Let them fail if necessary.

You could just plug on with the French and if she's not confident when it comes to the exam, she just doesn't take it thus avoiding the row with school until its too late to make a fuss.

The difference between 11 and 9 A* is immaterial. Or number of 8/9 grades. There is a lot more to it than that. However, I cannot see how a breadth of study is not helpful. That’s why most schools expect it of their Oxbridge candidates.

cestlavielife well I certainly wouldn't think it a brilliant idea to tell the school the DD needs to drop French or it will ruin her chances of Oxbridge....