DD still can't decide what to study at uni. (Eng Lit or Philosophy?)

[ImagoLuna]

I've posted here before about DD (in Yr 12) who can't decide whether to study English Literature or Philosophy at uni. Time is running out and her school is currently getting students to think about personal statements, continue to add to relevant extra reading/ attending lectures/seminars etc related to their uni subject and gear up towards uni applications.

We've had endless conversations at home about which subject she'd prefer. She's sure she doesn't want to do a combined honours degree but she really can't decide between these 2 subjects. On the one hand, she feels that Eng Lit would be easier and she consistently does well at English. On the other hand, she thinks that it's really difficult to get into a good Eng Lit course as it's so popular. Then again, she thinks that there are some aspects of Philosophy she'll find very hard - compulsory Logic/Epistemology components - yet there are aspects she'd really enjoy - especially when it relates to the 'real world' application of Philosophy.

So I'm back on here again to ask for anyone's personal experience of studying Philosophy or Eng Lit at unis and especially the ones she's currently considering - Oxbridge - maybe - but more likely Durham, UCL, Bristol and Exeter.

What's really good and what wasn't so good about the degree you chose - either Philosophy or Eng Lit?

More generally, how did you help your child to decide what to study at uni when they were faced with a similar dilemma? I've tried so many different ways of helping her make the choice and she's no further forward really. What more can I do to help her as she really needs to decide soon and then do things that will continue to improve her personal statement for her chosen degree?

Damn, cat, you rumbled us.

Thanks basilisk.

@LRDtheFeministDragon - have you been away and come back again?

I've been around, just not posting very much! Last year I had a baby and most of a book (I am trying frantically to get the manuscript to the publisher in a few weeks), and it cut into my MNing time.

LRD not exactly, that's just how I did it. People less inclined to see sex and religion (or religion as an extension of sex and power) in every work of literature seemed to get lower marks :o

Congratulations on the baby and the book!

If she doesn't want to do a joint she could still do a major/minor or even a couple of units from the subject she doesn't pursue to her final year.

Most universities allow you to take a couple of electives and some even force you to in the first year.

Thanks!

So many helpful replies. Thank you. DD has no idea what she wants to do eventually, which makes this whole thing even harder - though she has muttered about a law conversion course - but only because she feels that law is one career where she could have a chance of earning at a level nearer to those who've done STEM subjects, not because she's particularly interested in it.

She's not a whizz kid at Maths, although got A* at GCSE - but didn't think of pursuing this at A level. That makes her wonder about Philosophy at a top university and whether the kind of thinking skills are easier for natural mathematicians. She dropped her 4th A level - Economics - after one term, as she struggled to achieve top marks and noticed her peers - most of whom were doing Maths/Further Maths at A level - found it a lot easier than she did.

Her school has also said what others are saying here - that she should do whatever she likes best - but that's still her sticking point. She doesn't want to do a joint honours degree as she wants to focus on one subject - although could be happy doing some options from another subject when the opportunity arises, depending on where she ends up. The school also discouraged joint honours degrees and said it's best to do one specific subject usually.

I can't see her doing Classics or History nor would she be interested in those subjects and she feels that PPE is out of her grasp, given she didn't stick with economics A level, hasn't done Maths and it's very competitive to get into at the top unis.

Harrietm87 - DD has asked if you'd mind saying what GCSE and A level grades got you into Cambridge for English and what kinds of supercurricular things you did to improve your application. That's maybe too much personal information to disclose but maybe you can give her some idea of your typical Cambridge Eng Lit peers in those terms? She's done more to support a Philosophy application so far but has recently leaned more towards Eng Lit again and is worried she won't have enough on her personal statement to indicate her interest.

I think the Philosophy degree at Oxbridge looks too mathematical compared with others for her to fit in easily.

She's waiting for the results of her L6 exams and predicted A level grades and this might help in her decision too. It's so helpful having the wisdom of MN to draw on and people's personal experiences to consider. So do keep sharing your views!

I must change my username to "BasiliskNBIamnotanadmissionstutor) as I seem to use that caveat a great deal.

All I can tell you from 1 boy's application to one university - i.e. my DS - , ( and interviewed so more than PS) his PS was all about his areas of interest & the extra reading he had done , as was interview. He did it naturally because he was enthusiastic. A little bit at the end about his debating but not much ( and relevant in the sense of marshalling information and presenting an argument. ) But there are those on here with better knowledge than me. I suspect the extra reading got him further than any EC activities ( History) . So he went for the subject he had greatest enthusiasm for. I suspect some who come a cropper simply pick what they got best marks at school for. Given your daughter's situation , that may not help. Apologies.

I hate to argue with your school, op, but single honours for some subjects is absolutely not best. One would be MFL. It’s best to do joint if you can because it gives more options later. Rarely are degrees the end game these days. I know for some subjects, single honours is best, but the school would be daft to recommend a single MFL if the pupil has taken two MFL A levels or is gifted and can do one ab initio. In fact many subjects can usefully be combined with a MFL. It adds to employability. The idea that any employer picks a single honours grad over a joint honours is not correct either. It’s good to be versatile and juggle! Often the slightly higher workload and ability to study two subjects is admired by employers too. It’s more like Work!

Also, don’t do Law afterwards if she’s not interested in it. It would be awful and you are certainly not guaranteed high earnings or even a job!

My DDs friend who read English at Cambridge directed the school play, did lots of public speaking competitions, read a lot, formed opinions on what she read and didn’t have the greatest GCSEs. 5A* I think. She was quirky though and engaging which paid off at interview. She wasn’t super bright but was very well read!

Forgot to mention MUN and debating society. She wasn’t as bright as a couple of girls who didn’t get in for the same subject. So it’s what the tutors like really.

My DS's tutors at school and at Cambridge (not that he's got in yet, and might of course not) were categoric that what matters for Oxbridge is the academics. You have to have the academics. You can fill your personal statement with two instruments at grade 8, county/national sports, whatever you like. All they take into account is the academics. That was the overriding message.

I'm a philosopher.

How much philosophy has your DD had contact with? I have taught philosophy to a lot of non-philosophy students and it isn't usually a very popular topic. As soon as students come into contact with it, they know that they enjoy it and most of them do.

She does not need to be good at maths to do philosophy. Some ohilosophers are but philosophers have a wide range of reasoning skills and spécialisé in many different areas. She will almost certainly need to aptake an introductory logic course but she'll be fine, it's really basic stuff. Most degrees will include introductory courses in metaphysics, epistemology, moral philosophy and Ancient Greek philosophy, with many other options offered in the third year where she can't focus more on moral, political and applied philosophy.

Having said that, there is no national curriculum for philosophy and no one would bat an eyelid if a course had a different focus because essentially we teach reasoning skills. We expose students to good (and bad) arguments and hope they learn something about argumentation; the content of the arguments is secondary in this sense.

Philosophy graduates are at least as employable as other humanities graduates, I wouldn't worry about that as such.

Massive typo, sorry...philosophy IS usually a very popular topic!

@ImagoLuna I went there 05-08, got 9A*s and 3As at GCSE and 4As at A level, plus an additional A at AS level.
I did a lot of one particular extracurricular thing completely unrelated to English and was ranked in the UK in it but I don't think that's relevant to my offer. Almost everyone I came across at Cambridge did lots of extracurricular stuff but more because they were bright so had plenty of time outside schoolwork rather than that it was some kind of condition of their offer iyswim. So whilst it's not necessary at all to have a load of extra stuff, it can be a way of demonstrating that you're not killing yourself to achieve your school grades.

I didn't have anything extracurricular to support my English app - I just loved reading. That's all you need. I never did any acting for example. The interviews focus on discussion and analysis of texts and my college had a written exam as well. No one asked about my personal statement. I think it matters less at Cambridge as they interview you in person, whereas at other unis it's all they have to go on. Hope that helps - feel free to PM me.