Should my DD drop out of uni? Opinions please

[MollyH1]

For context, My DD is currently studying English Literature at a Russell group uni . She's been fairly unhappy all year, which has been difficult to see, but she's truly settled in now and enjoying herself a bit more. Course wise, she's just received her latest essay results, and they show she is working at the level of a 2:2. My DD thinks this is the end of the world, and is now discussing dropping out this summer, at the end of her first year. Is a degree at 2:2 level 'worth it'?
My encouragement is that she will get better throughout the next two years, and she will hopefully gain a 2:1, if she doesnt' a 2:2 is still great. Is my DD correct in her thinking that a 2:2 isn't worth it? I really think she should stay. She works very hard - I think she's is overthinking her marks as she spends a lot of time working and tries her best...maybe she's thinking this is the best she can do. It didn't help that her essay marks were lower than last term. Help me persuade her to stay!

I have a 2:2 from a lower ranking uni. I still managed to get on to a post grad programme (at a better uni) in a subject I was better suited to. I also got on to a graduate training course that sponsored me at the 2nd uni.
A 2:2 has not held me back in my career because I am motivated, hard working and go above and beyond.
I don’t think a 2:2 would hold your daughter back either if she is really determined in her chosen field.
A lot can change in the next 2 years anyway!
If she is really unhappy and that unhappiness is making her ill - that is different and I would think about changing direction. Life is too short.

It doesn’t really matter what the average for the institution is though. It’s likely to be either high 2:ii or low 2:i.* Either way, there’s no reason for the OP’s DD to feel like a failure. A 2:ii is a completely reasonable result overall in first year wherever you study.

I second those PPS who suggested your DD speaks to her tutor/advisor/Programme Leader or whatever the role is called at her institution. I do that role and I'm always happy to see students and go over their work with them to help them improve. It's so nice to see students who actually care!

However, as she has mentioned dropping out, I wonder if she is a bit unhappy at university in general?

So here's my take on it.

Today's first years have taken too many exams and done too much assessed work, and have an entirely unrealistic view of grading.

Most of them (ignoring the very small numbers who do IB and the like, and the very new students who won't have done AS as half-A2) will have taken public exams every year for the past four years. They will have done some early-entry GCSE in year 10, GCSE in 11, AS in 12, A2 in 13. At every point they will have been aiming for "marks" (let's not get bogged down in UMS vs raw, because most people, including most students, don't understand the interplay) of 90% and above.

The students who arrive in the RG have done so with AAA at A2: far above the A Levels "my generation" largely got (I wouldn't get an offer today for the courses I teach, and if I did get an offer I wouldn't meet it). They are used to getting 90% plus in everything. And here they are, in a world where 40% in a pass and 70% is excellence.

I've had students banging on my door to complain they have got 19/20 rather than 20/20 on a small timed exercise worth in total 2% of a 10 credit module, so in rounding error for their overall mark. But so engrained is the "fight every mark" attitude they can't stop. I try to say that 80%+ in written work means publishable, but get nowhere.

They're utterly obsessed with ludicrously high marks. No first year should be getting 90%. But they expect it, because they've been getting it in school, and believe it to be necessary.

That's not the point Keneft. The point is that dismissing the DD's concerns about where she lies in the pecking order - and she clearly feels she's done less well than she should - is incredibly unproductive. MN can be lovely and clucky but false reassurance is not helpful at all.

I would agree that it’s still very early days and unless she is very unhappy I would be encouraging her to continue.

I also studied English at a Russell Group uni and found the first year the hardest in that the expectations are much higher than A level and they are looking for a different style of essay which takes a while to get used to. As it is always such a popular course the skills of the other students is also very high which can be disconcerting for someone who is used to getting top grades. It was often said that English was the easiest subject to pass but the hardest to get a top mark in, I guess because of its subjective nature.

It may reassure your daughter to know that I found the 2nd and 3rd tears to be more manageable, the work was not harder and my grades improved. Generally you have more choice in modules to take as the degree progresses so she may be able to chose modules that appeal to her more.

Second the idea of talking to her personal tutor too, that’s what they are there for and I’m sure would be happy to help.

The point is that dismissing the DD's concerns about where she lies in the pecking order

If first years are worrying about "their place in the pecking order" that's a huge shame.

Cross post Keneft.

My take on it would be that bright students are bright enough to know that approximately 70% becomes a top grade rather than approximately 90%. I think you underestimate bright kids.

My take on it would be that bright students are bright enough to know that approximately 70% becomes a top grade

That isn't my experience.

I'd never even heard of a Russel Group University... checked the list and I went to one!

My first year grades were poor, second improved and by my final year I narrowly missed out on a first (damn that 1%!)
The demands of university are very different to school level and I found the assignments to be a bit of a learning process.

Cross post again Keneft!

Yes perhaps it is a shame but.... that is exactly the problem here so my feeling is that it should be addressed and understood, not minimised.

Oh, and my institution - and others - are working on a system of transcripts which will include essentially American style GPAs, precisely to deal with the problem of the upward drift of marks. I'm not Oxford Brookes, but their material on it is public:

Keneft another cross post.

I'm really struggling with the idea that bright DC such as this DD can't understand the different numbers for top grades at uni. I'm sorry but that's absurd.

I'm really struggling with the idea that bright DC such as this DD can't understand the different numbers for top grades at uni.

So your tutees aren't pushing back over marks like 65% being actually pretty good? That's good news, but all my colleagues in whatever subject, when we come together, complain this is a huge problem. And not just for home students, in fact if anything slightly easier: it's a huge problem for international students. We put material into induction and re-induction weeks, into programme and module handbooks, into tutorial sessions: there is still huge unhappiness about it.

re 'here here'

Re. average marks - in my experience, conscientious students who work hard and care a lot will measure themselves not against the average, but against the people they know who are doing really well. As top A level students, they often aren't used to not being one of the best. I'd be surprised if OP's daughter is thinking about the average for the year group, but she might be thinking about what her friends are getting, and she might be thinking that a 2:ii is a terrible grade.

I can assure you that a 2:ii average is very much normal at the end of the first year - if they were all coming in and getting firsts at this stage, what would be the point of the next two years? That's not fluffy and clucky, it's just true.

I got a 2:2 in my law degree and thought it was the end of the world. Bawled my eyes out and had to be convinced to go to my graduation. Thought I'd never get a traineeship or a job. Fast forward 14 years and I got a traineeship and a job, then another job and then another job. If it's what she wants to do, she will be fine.

Also, I don't think anyone saying 'it's all fine' - of course she should be aiming as high as she can, but at the moment she's not in a disastrous place or a place from which it's impossible to do better. Talking to her tutor, going back through her feedback, and reading as much critical work as she can are all good strategies for doing this.

Does she had access to a study techniques class, sometimes they are run by the library and called things like, 'study for success'.

Often students work hard but not necessarily in the way the uni or department wants them to.

I do a short class with students (access course) and the assignment is to draw a cat. They then get a couple of pictures, one a badly drawn cat and the other the Mona Lisa.

I ask them to mark them, they mostly put the Mona Lisa as a higher mark but when compared to the brief 'draw a cat' it scores zero.

Drawing 50 cats doesn't get you any more points, a photo of a cat doesn't get you any more points.

It has become a phrase on some courses, "ok this is OK but you have drawn the Mona Lisa"

The OU has some excellent resources of study techniques. I've also seen this recommended

www.amazon.co.uk/Good-Study-Guide-Andrew-Northedge-ebook/dp/B008OINB7E/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&keywords=open+university&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1524218512&sr=1-1

As top A level students, they often aren't used to not being one of the best.

I got the shock of my life, as did my children (going to rather fancier universities than I went to): you go from being the best around you, to just another face in the crowd. You go from #1 to #meh.

It's what Martin Brundle (who, it's worth noting, never won an F1 race in 158 starts) says: you win every race you enter in lower formula, and your prize is a job where you will never win anything again. Most F1 drivers were champions in all the lower formulae they drove in: indeed, that's pretty much the only route to a superlicence these days. Most F1 drivers never win a race. Brundle had some competitive cars; on the other side of the garage, Michael Shumacher was winning. And being an F1 driver in a competitive team means you're one of the top twenty-odd drivers in the world, paid an absolute fortune and feted wherever you go. He still never won a race. He was still one of the best drivers in the world.

At my university, 20 years ago in another country, they made it very clear that first year marks, good or bad, were not necessarily a predicator for future marks. Many students arrive without much of the basic understanding of how to do research and apply analytical thinking, so first year had to teach them this. while others had gone to really good schools and had a good grounding but could not take it to the next level, therefore achieving good marks in first year but less good marks in future year.

I also struggled to settle at university. didn't make a lot of friends my first year and while I enjoyed some of the course work, I found a lot of it hideous. But in second year I settled down. Found new friends and realised the kind of person I wanted to be. I also shifted a few subjects around and was suddenly a LOT happier and came out with the equivalent of a 2:1 at the end as well as a few friends for life and a mind that had been expanded in a wonderful way.

describing not analysing.

So it's not set questions, it's her choice, which is quite unusual.

There might be a clue here, if she is working hard, setting her own questions, but only getting a desmond (tutu) it might be worth considering whether she is picking careful questions, maybe ones that have been asked many times before, and then conscientiously providing a very full answer. That is a useful skill, and one she has demonstrated in A levels. Maybe she needs some more radical thinking to select the question and then more analysis of her material to present the key points to make her case

[ask me how i know, Im at work, multishirking when I ought to be writing an executive summary of the report i spent most of yesterday writing]

Having a discussion with a trusted tutor around this idea, if she can be brave enough to ask for more general feedback and act upon it, may help reveal what is going wrong.

If that just doesn't appeal, perhaps feels too unsafe, it may be worth cutting her losses and doing something else, saving the option for a funded degree for the time when she knows a bit more about herself and what she wants to do. Maybe TEFL or something light for a year or two. A higher apprenticeship might be ideal, but competition for places seems to be v v stiff

Before posting ive gone back to read the thread and notice that there is stacks of brilliant advice here. Ill add my own anyway. Degree classification very much does not correlate with career or even life success, but knowing there is something you are missing is always a horrible thought. The kind of skills required for success at Uni are very useful, whatever she chooses to do.

The presenting problem is already identified, you/she are researching possible solutions, finding and implementing the solution will be a boost to her self esteem what ever she chooses to do next. All the best

[back to my 'essay']

I actually think the idea of a straightforward hierarchy (‘pecking order’) in first year marks that will somehow translate into final degree classification is extremely unhelpful. It’s not about unrealistic platitudes, it’s simply that a 2:ii is totally fine and things are different to the GCSE, AS, A2 treadmill. A student can fail first year and have to resit and go on to get straight firsts in their next two years (I’ve seen this several times). Many, many students write too descriptively or vaguely in first year but manage the right level of analysis in the next two. Some students even do well at first year but coast along and never improve so their marks decline (because what got a 2:i in first year isn’t going to get one in later years).

So it doesn’t matter how the OP’s DD ranks within her cohort. What matters is that she’s been working hard, is doing the right things and can make use of the support and feedback to get where she wants to be next year.

And yes, students are bright but they still panic that they’re not getting 95 or 100. There is a quite entrenched culture in education (and wider society) at the moment that has young people terrified that they’ll be failures. Emotionally it is hard for them to accept that 63 is a great mark. Or that 58 is not a bad mark. Those of us who work with undergraduates are not underestimating them; we’re telling you about our day-to-day experiences.

I have colleagues who work at very elite universities and they tell me that the anxiety levels in their students are increasing all the time. It’s certainly much worse than when I taught at the same kind of university. They have students running themselves into the ground trying to work harder and do better than their peers. These are extremely capable young people, but they can’t see the wood for the trees because they’re so caught up in a narrative of there being no room for error if they’re to have a decent life. The students genuinely believe that anything less than a first is a ‘failure’.

@sashh genius.

If she's working hard then I would be willing to put a modest amount of money on it that she's not answering the question set sufficiently (and going off-topic)

^This

Humanities grad here and this is the single biggest bit of feedback people seemed to get and I think the cat/50 cats/Mona Lisa analogy above it perfect. In fact, I am with ssah permission going to steal it for when I career change. It's perfect.

I have colleagues who work at very elite universities and they tell me that the anxiety levels in their students are increasing all the time. It’s certainly much worse than when I taught at the same kind of university. They have students running themselves into the ground trying to work harder and do better than their peers.

That's exactly my experience (more traditional end of pre-1914). I've had people crying in my office - and I'm not welfare, I'm an academic tutor - more often than I like. I am back in the department I did my own degree in half a lifetime ago, and it wasn't like this.