Should my DD drop out of uni? Opinions please

[MollyH1]

For context, My DD is currently studying English Literature at a Russell group uni . She's been fairly unhappy all year, which has been difficult to see, but she's truly settled in now and enjoying herself a bit more. Course wise, she's just received her latest essay results, and they show she is working at the level of a 2:2. My DD thinks this is the end of the world, and is now discussing dropping out this summer, at the end of her first year. Is a degree at 2:2 level 'worth it'?
My encouragement is that she will get better throughout the next two years, and she will hopefully gain a 2:1, if she doesnt' a 2:2 is still great. Is my DD correct in her thinking that a 2:2 isn't worth it? I really think she should stay. She works very hard - I think she's is overthinking her marks as she spends a lot of time working and tries her best...maybe she's thinking this is the best she can do. It didn't help that her essay marks were lower than last term. Help me persuade her to stay!

Ahh, sorry that was meant to be directed at MollyH1 not supercalifragilisticexpiali!

Have PMd you Molly

I really feel for your daughter feeling so discouraged - but this is so, so common and not at all a sign that she can't improve! I teach a humanities subject at a Russell group university and so many students really struggle with making the transition from A-level to university writing in the first year and then something just 'clicks' and their marks soar.

Second the advice to make sure she's acting on feedback BUT actually asking lots of questions may not help, because sometimes when they get too many points for improvement students struggle to prioritise them and so put all their effort into fixing a minor issue (referencing style or similar) while not working on the big thing that's actually stopping them getting a 2:1. I suggest she asks the tutor outright 'what is the single most important thing for me to work on to improve my essays?' and go from there. If she's working hard then I would be willing to put a modest amount of money on it that she's not answering the question set sufficiently (and going off-topic) and/or that she's describing not analysing. Both of those can actually be real problems for students who work hard, as they often want to show what they know, but do this in a way that gets in the way of them showing what they can do (eg quoting lots of secondary criticism at the expense of their own analysis). These are totally fixable problems, but they require identifying and specifically tackling.

Does her university have a study skills/academic writing help service that's separate from her department? (They're often part of the library service if so) If they do, I'd recommend she investigates if they have any opportunities to work with someone who will help specifically with essay writing - not content, but style, genre and approach. The university I work at has this and students have benefited massively - again, it often seems to help them see the wood for the trees, which lots of divergent feedback from different individual modules has confused them over.

At the uni she is at, she's had to make her own questions up. So it's not set questions, it's her choice, which is quite unusual.

Thnam yoh everyone for your advice, I will pass this on to her! Hopefully it will make her feel less discouraged

English lit lecturer here - she won't get worse! Seriously the only time students' marks decline over three years is when they disengage.

What kind of feedback is she getting currently? What things are they pointing out about her essays? If she's still writing in the way that got her the A*s at A level, it is probably about making a shift to arguments, rather than surveying themes, or the kinds of critical sources she's using, the A level style language (for example, apparently in A level they are not allowed to say 'word', they have to say if it's a fronted adverbial or whatever, and at university and beyond, you wouldn't do that). There are lots of things that mark an essay as 2:ii level which are fairly straightforward to put right, but it does take a while to make that shift.

Is her feedback helpful/constructive? Are the same things coming through in various assignments?

If I'd lost every student who was averaging 2:iis at the end of the first year, I'd be very sorry indeed, and a lot of high 2:is and firsts at the end of the degree would never happen. Please tell her not to be dispirited.

ps it's not unusual to be asked to construct your own title and argument! It's just that a lot of students aren't used to doing that.

I don’t teach English lit, but can tell you that the marks range on humanities courses I’ve taught in first year (at a whole range of universities) is enormous. I’ve given first years anything from 18 to 87 in essays. But the marks do tend to cluster more around the middle of that range! The outliers are more unusual. And the lowest marks very much tend to be those who didn’t attend.

Marks in the 2:2 range mean that the essay is good, but generally tends to be more descriptive than critical. That’s a really solid foundation for further study. Going to her classes and engaging with tutorial tasks will help her to deepen her analysis and move up into the kind of marks she’s hoping for.

There is a big jump in what is expected between A-levels and university, particularly in relation to analysis and critical thinking. These are advanced cognitive skills that do take time to develop, and then students have to figure out how to demonstrate them in their writing. It’s not simple. And progress isn’t always straightforward or linear.

I always tell my students to hold on to their first year work so they can look back and see how far they’ve come. My final year students often tell me that they hadn’t realised how differently they were able to think things through until they looked back.

My brother got a 2:2 And his degree took him into a career in teaching which he loves and is very successful at ( head of dept at a young age etc). Suppose it depends what she wants to do next. Surely a 2:2 Is better than no degree??

2.2 level marks in the first year are totally normal.

I gather from my humanities colleagues that the extent to which A Level teaching prepares you for undergraduate teaching varies wildly from school to school. Some people will get a A in English based on what is essentially the first year of a degree, others will get an A based on a lot of question spotting and detailed preparation. When they arrive at university, the gulf is quite wide.

And yes, it’s not unusual to be asked to construct your own question. That’s also something she’ll get more confident with, and will probably come to see it as a desirable aspect of a module.

I feel bad for students these days. The cultural (and economic) context really does encourage them to become anxious about things that didn’t worry my cohort at university to the same extent. So many students put so much pressure on themselves and panic when they’ve achieved less than perfection. They really seem to feel that they’ll end up on the scrap heap of life. It doesn’t help them at all (and isn’t true in the least). In fact, being able to be more relaxed about it would probably help them to demonstrate the skills they have better.

So just help you DD to relax and celebrate her achievements this year, OP. It’s not easy to move away from home and settle in a new city. Nor is it easy to transition into the ways of doing things at university from school. She’s managed to do this and has achieved a solid set of marks to move on to second year with. Well done her.

Hmmm..I think she mostly writes on 'Themes' to be honest, perhaps this is the problem then. I'll definitely pass this information on to her, to try and help her and see that no the everything is doom and gloom!
So would you say an average mark for a first year would be in the 50s percentage range?
Interestingly, she was told to "be specific" and state if the word was a verb, noun, fronted adverbials etc when analysing at A Level. Why is this not acceptable at university level? Should she just use the word 'word' then?

Interestingly, she was told to "be specific" and state if the word was a verb, noun, fronted adverbials etc when analysing at A Level.

See my point about the difference between A Level and undergraduate, depending upon how you were taught.

Yes, just use 'word'! It might be helpful for her to look at critical essays and books and notice how they're written - she'll probably notice they don't say things like 'it can be argued', they don't say 'the adverbial phrase.... shows....', they do use the first person where relevant, they don't use 'you', semantic field, lexis choice, etc. At A level, I suppose it's about showing you know those terms, and kinds of words - at university, it's about showing you've got something to say about the text.

Themes aren't necessarily bad, but the shift is in how you're writing about them, and her tutors should be able to help with this.

Yes, I would definitely say 2:iis are more likely than any other mark at the end of first year.

It would depend on the university. Where I am now (post-92) the average first year mark is often low 50s (or even in the 40s, depending on the cohort). When I taught at an RG university, marks in the high 50s/low 60s were very common on first year modules.

Learning to form an argument, and to argue it convincingly (drawing upon evidence) is challenging. A-level students are used to trying to hit a set of criteria (themes, grammar jargon, etc) but don’t necessarily need to form a coherent and convincing argument.

A-levels are a completely different beast to degree study. You will often hear university lecturers complaining about how much they have to ‘unteach’ students from a-levels so that they can succeed with what they need to do at university.

Is she getting useful feedback from her essays? At this stage, the feedback is more important than the grade.

Good feedback is vital if she's going to learn how to get the top marks later.

Writing academic essays is a skill that comes with practice and I don't think the A levels necessarily prepare you enough.

they do use the first person where relevant

I've spent the last semester telling students that if you're writing an account of how you carried out a study and what conclusions you draw from it, "I did this" is the right thing. Death to fake plurals! It's not collaborative, so what's this "we" business? Death to the passive voice! Stuff didn't just happen, you did it, didn't you? Death to tentative "it might be argued" or "one could argue"! If you think something is true, damned well say so. If you did something, damned well say so.

It's like that foul register that officialdom writes in, all arch circumlocution intended to confuse the reader, but often just revealing the muddied thinking of the writer. If you want to say "I performed this study and from the results I draw these conclusions", write "I performed this study and from the results I draw these conclusions", not "the study was performed and from the results it can be argued that...".

Fake, cargo cult, faux-academic writing.

And unclench.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace the power of MN that OP has been able to receive such a helpful response from someone who is able to really help brings joy to my heart!

I've spent the last semester telling students that if you're writing an account of how you carried out a study and what conclusions you draw from it, "I did this" is the right thing. Death to fake plurals! It's not collaborative, so what's this "we" business? Death to the passive voice! Stuff didn't just happen, you did it, didn't you? Death to tentative "it might be argued" or "one could argue"! If you think something is true, damned well say so. If you did something, damned well say so

Here here! They actually get told to use the passive voice and modal language, and then we correct it and tell them not to - you can see why it's confusing!

Here here!

Or at least, "hear hear" :-)

I would expect the DD to know what's average for her own institution and I get the feeling a 2.2 is a bit less than average for hers, hence her upset. I'm surprised you say a 2.2 is the average mark for the end of first year these days SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace. There might be a danger is the OP insisting this is the case if her DD knows it isn't. The DD will most likely not listen to other advice is she's made to feel she's upset about nothing. I accept that it must vary across institutions and the DD may simply be being unduly gloomy about her position in the scheme of things but at the very least the OP should take care to get the facts on that one before saying it's all fine.

I've never been asked for anything other than a degree. No one has asked what grading i got so a 2.2 would have been fine for me.

Oh yes. Death to passive voice and fake plurals!

Againfaster because it applied to you in your field doesn't mean it applies universally. The class of their degree has mattered enormously to most of my DC.

I know people who have gained 2.2 degrees (in the last 10 years) who are doing pretty well for themselves. Sometimes, just having a degree can help open doors. Equally, if she wanted to go into teaching, having a 2.2 in English would currently entitle her to a bursary. Some doors might be closed to her e.g. some grad schemes, but a 2.2 would still give her lots of opportunities that having no degree wouldn't.

However, as she has mentioned dropping out, I wonder if she is a bit unhappy at university in general? Is she enjoying her course? Is she generally happy? Does she have an idea of what she might do instead?

I would expect the DD to know what's average for her own institution

I would rather they talked to their tutor and got some feedback on the progress they are making and the areas in which they are and are not improving.