What are the best Oxford Colleges?

[brentlondon]

Does it really make much difference where one gets accepted?

Do the “best” colleges get the strongest applicants/brightest/most able?

So we did all the research, visited all the colleges. DD particularly wanted a college offering "in college" accommodation for 3 years, and good food (!), she also favoured one of the smaller colleges. In the end it was all meaningless. She wasn't offered a place at her first choice, but ended up with her randomly allocated second which was Magdalen, big, and with a deer park (!). On the day she had visited Oxford, she hated it, and all the people she met, and would never have applied there. Now in her third year, she has had the experience of her life. She loves it, has amazing friends, has thrown herself into drama and sport, does outreach, and lots else beside. The moral? Don't stress it too much. To get an offer at all is amazing, and generally, UG's will love their allocated college and will live with any quirks or deficiencies it may have.

”Are you OK peteneras? You seem quite disgruntled about a relatively innocuous subject. Is there anything you want to talk about? Things at home good? Work alright?”

Very kind of you to ask, HingleMcCringleberry. Thank you.

Me disgruntled??

No, Never! And believe me, seriously, things over here at the peteneras’ household have never been so good ever. DS’s left home more than seven months ago to be working as an F1 doctor in a much sought-after and one of three “Hardest to get into” [Messly] Foundation Programmes or Deaneries in the country. In a little over four months he’d be, hopefully, a fully registered doctor with the GMC!

Even as I type this note, his older sister, my other child, a Russell Group scientist, is sunning herself on a beach in a faraway tropical land with her fiancé, someone she met at university, a Management graduate and now also a fully qualified chartered accountant. Both (under 30) are now trying to sell their smallish London flat for a bigger 3 or 4-bed house. Talking of which, I myself had been to the mortgage lender’s office just last week to discuss my end-of-mortgage arrangements. And so it seems, all my austere and careful long-term plannings have suddenly come to an abrupt end. The Almighty above must be smiling at me all this while – I must have done something that pleases Him!

Firstly, my apologies to the OP for being led out of sync from this thread. Ordinarily speaking, I’ve nothing to contribute in a thread like this one but I did take exception to a particular phrase here which says, “Everyone at Oxford is the brightest and most able…” - presumably in their chosen fields.

Don’t know about you guys, but to me this means that no one else in the world comes anywhere near the calibre of an Oxford (under)graduate in any of the disciplines offered by a university. This may well be true (though highly questionable) in them old Victorian days in subjects like Ancient Gaelic or Medieval Norse but not in the modern era. I thought both Dustylaw and Needmoresleep gave an excellent account in their postings.

I have said it before but at the risk of repeating myself, Oxford, or even Cambridge, do not have the sole monopoly of the brightest and most able individuals under their wings. Let’s take, for example, the most prestigious, most difficult and sought-after, most talked-about in these forums, and most certainly the longest and most expensive course in any university degree – Medicine – the subject that separates the genuine article from the wannabe; the men from the boys. . .

All final year medics in the UK’s 34 medical schools compete against each other on a National basis and on an equally level playing field – the Battle of The Titans, if you like – for post- graduate Foundation jobs in hospital deaneries throughout the nation. Make no mistakes, these are the guys about to be let loose very shortly on your body, both inside and out, (and of your family members’ too) and therefore, have to be the ‘brightest’ and ‘most able’ individuals. In many instances, they really are playing God here – your lives in their hands – and presumably they all come from Oxford , if a certain poster here is to be believed.

But sorry to burst your bubble. The brightest and most able of this lot come from anywhere but

Oxbridge. This is the latest Table (click to enlarge) i.e. DS’s cohort, to show you where the nation’s brightest and most able medics (the Maximum total FP score – penultimate column) are to be found – in a good half of the entire 34 medical schools throughout the UK, all scoring higher points than Oxford and Cambridge and thus effectively relegating Oxbridge to the second division!

Yes, tell that to your grandmother!

Doglover
Sorry just saw your post a bit behind the times.

My son is hoping to apply for Law at Merton for 2019 entry. Do you have any tips or inside information that would be prove useful?

He's quite a studious, quieter type and not a party animal - do you think he would fit in well there? He also loves music and spends hours on the piano. Is there somewhere at Merton he could do this?

Huge thanks!

Pateneras - You can quote any number of statistics to fit an agenda. You use your sons cohort, which is fine, but the year before Oxford and Cambridge were top. There are many other statistics out there that consistently put Oxbridge top for Medicine, and worldwide. What you haven't considered is that many Oxbridge medics opt to go into Research as these institutions are based upon a research ethic. It depends on what each potential medic wishes to achieve from their degree. Link to University Guide top medical schools : www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings?s=medicine

Top World Rankings : www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2017/medicine

Yes, but in fairness these are rankings, as much as anything, of medical research. The rise of Oxbridge/London probably reflects a fairly recent policy of concentrating expensive medical research in a Golden Triangle, Britain's hub for international collaberation. .

Oxbridge have quite a different approach, especially for pre-clinical. Some say this is better, others not. In part it will depend on the student and how they like learning. When one might go for academic post graduate studies is a different matter.

peteneras I don't see why getting an F1 post would be a Battle of the Titans. Doesn't everyone get an F1 post? As far as I know DS just listed his preferences and then got told which one he was getting last week. Everyone seemed to get one and he and all his friends seemed to get their top choice too so it doesn't seem very Titan like - more simply an admin thing of allocation.

Stranger, I'm not sure if your DS and his friends experience is proof of a system. Pretty random but the person I gave a Freecycle piano to, was rejected by all her F1 choices the same morning. A London graduate wanting to stay in London. She had not been aware that the process was so competitive.

No, no it's not of course. I just mean Battle of the Titans seems excessively colourful for what seems a fairly straightforward administrative process. I can see from a pretty swift google (unless I'm reading the numbers wrong) that most applicants at all medical schools seem to get their first choice. I know from DS that some deaneries are much more competitive to get into than others so no doubt people will tailor their choices accordingly. But how does this student you gave the piano to get rejected by all of her choices? My understanding was that you can list all the deaneries in order, so did she perhaps only list the three London ones and having not got those, was randomly allocated? But still allocated I expect, which was my point - that everyone gets allocated somewhere don't they? I think DS filled the list in completely, not wanting to leave an allocation to chance. Sorry for going way off thread but it's in response to the comment about Titans, also because the F1 thing is topical.

(But back on track the best thing your DS can do to help bag Merton is to do a really high scoring LNAT, since I assume his grades are all good. Not inside info as such but there's probably no such thing, not that would help an application anyhow).

Yes, but in fairness these are rankings, as much as anything, of medical research.

Indeed.

For example, MIT ranks 12 on the link above based on research alone. It's not even possible to train as a medical doctor in MIT (though, MIT is probably one of the best places to do a pre-med undergraduate degree because of its excellence in science.)

This deviates from the thread but to correct misleading conclusions. The FP score cannot be used for the conclusions that peteneras makes - a league table of the medical schools with the highest number of the 'brightest and most able'.

It is composed of two parts, the educational performance and situational judgement. The former is scored by how well a student performs in within their own medical school cohort for assessments defined by their medical school. So a student who is in the top decile of a weaker medical school cohort will score better than a student who is in the second decile of a very able cohort. There are a few additional points for intercalating degrees and publiciations.
The SJT test taken by all is assessing understanding of GMC regulations for communication, professional behaviour etc required for the F1 role, not knowledge or academic ability or skills for making correct diagnoses.
'Safeness' for F1 duties is the priority in all this.
Different criteria are used for entry into the academic foundation programmes.

.

Hello Aurea. I am happy to help with specific Merton College questions so ask away! As in all the Oxford colleges, there really is a complete cross-section of students and yet the ethos truly is one of acceptance and support. My dd comes from an inner-city comprehensive and she has friends from top public schools..... They are all proud to be at Oxford and, almost without exception (!), work extremely hard to achieve their best. It is pressurised but her tutors are inspirational, mark essays promptly and provide constructive feedback. My dd is certainly not a massive party animal - her first time clubbing was when she started uni - but there's certainly no pressure to do it. Some go, some don't and either's fine. Many students prefer to socialise in the JCR or with like-minded friends in their rooms or over a quiet meal and that's totally acceptable.

The music opportunities are fantastic throughout Oxford. Merton has a couple of practice rooms and frequent informal concerts where students can perform if they choose. Our dd plays in a Merton ensemble plus a string ensemble drawn from students across the university. There really is something for everyone, whatever their standard.

I can't offer any insider information because I really don't have any! Merton College generally do very well in the Norrington table and make no secret that they look for first-class potential in their prospective students. If you have an academic dc who thrives on independent study then it's worth a shot. They may get 'pooled' and be offered a place at another college within the university and that will turn out fine, too! If they're not accepted at Oxford, they'll attend another establishment and have a great time there ....... The best advice is to support, encourage and try not to let Merton be the be all and end all.

I wish your ds all the best for his future study,
.

*Dog Lover
*
Thank you! That's most helpful and seems to cement his choice.

Just one last thing, is your daughter happy with the standard of accommodation? Also has she heard anything on the grapevine about the quality of teaching for Law?

I'm happy to help :)

Merton offers accommodation for all three years which is so reassuring. Years 1 and 3 are in college and year 2 is five minutes walk away in college-owned houses. My dd (fresher) is in the Rose Lane accommodation which is newly-refurbished and is really lovely - her gabled room overlooks Christchurch Meadows. The Merton St accommodation for first years is older but still fine. The college food is excellent and incredibly good value so our dd eats in college most days which she really enjoys because she's never been the most organised of cooks!

Dd is away at her boyfriend's house until tomorrow but will ask her on her return about Law at Merton.

I can honestly say that she is absolutely loving her student life!

” Pateneras - You can quote any number of statistics to fit an agenda. You use your sons cohort, which is fine, but the year before Oxford and Cambridge were top. There are many other statistics out there that consistently put Oxbridge top for Medicine, and worldwide.”

GuildfordMum101, it’s not me quoting any number of statistics to fit an agenda. I have no agenda. It’s the “many other statistics out there that consistently put Oxbridge top for Medicine” that have an agenda.

What I quoted is not a world ranking table for Medicine either. It is not a league table or ranking of any kind for that matter. What it is, is a Statement of Facts! A comprehensive and detailed statement of facts compiled by none other than the UKFPO itself, an independent authority that analyzes and allocates foundation jobs to newly qualified doctors on the basis of a fair and uniform set of examination results as supplied by each medical school.

The UKFPO has no agenda – no axe to grind. The link that I supplied was only one page (pg 13) lifted out from their full 37-page report for 2017 which happened to be my son’s cohort.

The claim on this thread is that “Everyone at Oxford is the brightest and most able…” Well it’s only a wishful claim that is totally unfounded – at least not for Medicine.

”. . . but the year before Oxford and Cambridge were top.”

Like I said before, sorry to burst your bubble. Oxford and Cambridge do not own the freehold nor have they the divine rights to the top places. The top two places the year before go to London (UCL) and Bristol!

Different colleges are also "the best" for different subjects.

Although as pp have pointed out, the pooling system does do well at spreading out the candidates between colleges, I think it does still matter where you apply. Candidate pooling only kicks in after interviews whereas the first hurdle is getting selected for interview at all.

I wouldn't advise a young person to apply for a college which is universally seen as "the best" for their subject unless there was some evidence that the candidate was also among the very best dozen or so students in the country at that subject.

Being on track for an A* is nowhere near "enough" - that merely puts you in the top 8%. For a popular subject that means there are at least 5000 other candidates of similar calibre.

Each college may have say 6 places (some more, some less). "The best" colleges will get well over a thousand applicants for those 6 places and will have to select no more than 50 or so to interview. Many many outstandingly brilliant students will not even be selected for interview just due to this sheer weight of numbers.

Applying to a less popular college that is not perceived as among the best can slightly increase your chances - in that the college may be selecting 50 for interview from among "only" 400 applicants - marginally improving the odds of being selected for interview.

(Nb these figures are guestimates for illustration of my point. Actual figures may vary but the point stands)

Peternas I would be the first to say that Oxbridge does not have a monopoly on the best and brightest. I also agree that the score is fair and there is no underlying axe to grind apart from judging safeness to practise as a FP1 but it is not a comparator of 'best and brightest'. My post above gives you details but to reiterate.

Take two candidates of identical ability on entry to medical school and in all their medical school assessments, both do an intercalated year and get a publication: the one who goes to a medical school where he is in the top ability decile of a cohort will score much higher for the educational performance than the other who goes to a medical school where he is in the middle of a very bright cohort.
The SJP assesses understanding of GMC regulations for communication, professional behaviour etc required for the F1 role, not gained medical knowledge or academic ability.
Competitiveness for academic foundation programme places are more what you are after but criteria for that are not uniform in the deaneries.

I'd say Somerville College is the best Oxford college. Its student satisfaction, alumni list, prettiness, library and amazingly lovely atmosphere makes it the best college of Oxford University.

Those are fighting words Hannah ! I mean, if you're not one of the high street colleges you're not really in contention for best Oxford college, surely?

Well St John’s isn’t on the High

Think a very imposing bust of Margaret Thatcher will always make up for a multitude of shortfalls

I just think student satisfaction, atmosphere and facilities are more important factors than the amount of private school students or self-proclaimed 'prestige'. Academically it's all the same, excellent en prestigious, university.

My DD (Jesus) has had three years of Jesus college accommodation provided. First year in college and second and third in university owned accommodation blocks within (relative) walking distance. I feel absolutely blessed by the absence of any need to think about accommodation, private landlords, deposits, etc. This is not the case for all Oxford colleges and is IMHO a huge advantage. She's also been very happy there. Leadership is excellent.

I agree with peterneas, Whilst Oxford (and Cambridge) will certainly have a higher proportion of very bright students, the brightest students at pretty much any decent university will be just as bright. There will just be more of them at Oxbridge. The entrance process is not some magical system that can select the very brightest people. They take their applicants, they offer to a 'selection' of the most able (they can't offer to all the most able as there are too many) and then they take what they get. There are plenty of people gaining 5 or more A*s in rigourous subjects who DON'T go to Oxford and there are plenty of people going to Oxford who have a bulk standard 3xAs. There is a randomness and those of us with older offspring know of plenty of super brights that ended up at UCL or Imperial or Notts and plenty of smart but nothing specials that ended up at Oxford.