Tips for applicants/mentors to medicine at Oxbridge, Imperial, UCH.

[jamesforsythe]

Medical School at Oxbridge or Imperial/UCH

I'm a consultant dr. and my wife is a former dr. and admissions at Imperial Medicine and hence I am asked a lot about getting into medicine at Oxbridge, Imperial and UCH. I cannot speak for the many other excellent schools.

Firstly, Maths & Chem. both required - 3 &/or 4th A level grade A
(usually 4 A levels 2 x A* 2 x A, 1 x A if strong suite of GCSE's
(12A*/A is typical)

Re : Physics vs Biol A level. Biology is no better than Physics because no complex human biology is taught on any A level syllabi, which is why the gear-change in complexity once at med school in Biochemistry and Physiology slightly throws some candidates in year one.

Also, many applicants are thrown by the ubiquitous use of Applied Maths in modern medicine and research. You cannot really fudge your way here if you're just average at maths. But, you can apply for teaching support - in your limited extra time.

At Oxbridge, Imperial and UCH all that stuff about sport etc is cool but it is secondary to being truly excellent at maths and all sciences,having a superb school report - and having done some reading into medicine. IE at these schools you will very likely be questioned on what you claim to be interested in. Eg: An applicant claiming to be interested in Psychiatry as a career might reasonaly expect the question : may we discuss book(s) you have read?

But - note this well - the more difficult the questions are getting at your interview, the more interested the faculty is in you. If you've really done some reading into a field, they'll be impressed, provided you've understood it (even some of it)

Lastly, it's true: getting into Medicine is harder than the degree. Medicine is lots of hard work but, it's not as intellectually demanding as for example - the Cambridge Maths Tripos

• I know because I switched from that to medicine myself!

Good luck to all med school candidates and their parents.

Abra1de DS's qualifications are also at odds with the advice and he did apply to Oxford and Imperial. He didn't even take maths to AS. The advice isn't that sound.

That’s interesting, goodbye.

Goodbye, can we agree that experience of any kind is useful. And that it might be quite hard for medical schools to confirm that a student has the resilience and willingness to get stuck in, if they have no work experience at all. FWIW a season with as a chalet girl with a family ski company would have been a fantastic preparation for pads, except it has convinced DD that that is the last area she wants to work in. Elderly people were far easier.

Lots of kids do not have Saturday jobs. Doing well at school is often given absolute priority. Which is why I assume some schools want to know that prospective students can operate in a wider community, and sustain a longer term commitment.

Bristol had not taken anyone from DDs school for years either. Indeed she was the first for five years to even get an interview. Which is why I assume her unusually wide engagement in school, sport and volunteering tipped the balance.

To counter your earlier rowing/influence anecdote, DDs friend who had impeccable connections and access to string pulling, plus great AS results, got no offers at all. No volunteering at all though.

Needmoresleep absolutely. Lots of DC around here work - it's very common. All of my DC have worked but they aren't in the least unusual. It doesn't surprise me that independent school DC rarely do, I'll take you word for it.

But did the friend actually try to pull strings? History may not relate. In the rowing case it was quite openly acknowledged - the grades on exiting Eton were terrible.

Re Bristol, I can see very clearly that DS's personal statement didn't tick the boxes but he was winging it a bit - his preferred choices needed the sort of personal statement he wrote, and he liked Bristol next best of all the schools out there so stuck it on the UCAS form as one of four.

Autocorrect turned paeds into pads!

Any experience will do that with a bit of self analysis shows awareness of the gritty realism of life for many (whether ill or not) plus evidence of stamina and dealing with the worst as well as best side of people.

It is true that an applicant who may be less realistic than other applicants about what is needed for the long haul in medicine will still be a strong candidate to some of the more research strong medical schools because of their scientific ability. They will still have to be good communicators though.
I was rather naive about what it entailed when I applied but I still now think it is a brilliant career especially (for me) when combined with a major research component. The plurality of options in medicine means that most find something that appeals even if they end up deciding they don't really like dealing with patients! The most discontented doctors I know are those who were pushed into it by family but had yearnings for a different direction. .

DD has a lot of work/volunteering experience. She's been lucky in that we live in a town that do employ younger people (it's not an academic town at all) and also where the medical/social organisations are very encouraging of education in these fields, mainly because the area suffers from serious staff shortage, so education is seen as key.

DD academics are not her strongest point (from a medicine application perspective), so she knew she had to distinguish herself in terms of experience to tick the right boxes for the schools that value experience. Then the extra cash also became an incentive.

Having been through 3 interviews, what has transpired is that work experience has given her a lot more than a mean to tick the boxes. It's mainly given her a level of maturity, confidence and resilience that usually comes with such experience. It also allowed her to appreciate that Medicine is not just about doctors but about the wider system. She got to learn about the interface between social and health, the role of public health, the difference between primary and secondary care, all things that has given her knowledge to talk with confidence during interviews especially when challenged about ethical matters.

It makes it a lot easier to convince that you really are prepared to become a doctor when you can talk about the first time you had to wipe an old lady's bum, or talk about the experience of going to work to find out your favourite resident had unexpectedly died the previous night, when you witnessed the frustration of trying to get a resident who has deteriorated admitted to a ward when the hospital says they don't have a bed available or have to try to appease a person suffering from dementia desperate to leave the promises.

Getting this sort of experience is not easy when you're 17. DD knocked on so many doors to be given a chance and started as a kitchen assistant before she started to train to help as a carer about 8 months later. It can also be a gamble as any time and energy put into work experience is time and effort taken away from studies, so finding the right balance is essential.

My daughter found that basically any experience dealing with the public provided useful material for certain stages of her MMIs. Recounting how she once, aged17, had to tell a pub-full of bank-holiday diners that the chef had suddenly walked out and they wouldn’t get their meals (nearest alternatives miles away and service was already about halfway through) was a good example of how she could communicate with people and tell them something they didn’t want to hear. No medical context at all but some transferable skills.

We have doctors (consultants) in the family and know a good few. The thread seems pretty accurate to me. My children currently at university are not reading medicine but they had friends who applied and got in last year.

Was it vimmo above with the son who had lower predictions than hoped? As someone said above getting very good results this summer and then applying in a gap year might be one answer. A friend of my sons has gone somewhere in Europe to do medicine when he did not get the grades in the UK and I think his older sister did that too. These days that might even be cheaper than doing it in the UK.

”There is a regular MN assumption that only Oxbridge counts, and that those that fail to reach the dizzy heights then slot in elsewhere.”

Speak for yourself, Needmoresleep, don’t include me in your assumption. I’ve always advocated otherwise, that Oxbridge is not the best place for Medicine.

And “dizzy heights”?

What dizzy heights?

Now, let’s just put this matter to rest once and for all about this so-called “dizzy heights” of Oxbridge. Not for medicine! The best medics do not all go to Oxford and Cambridge if at all. Put it another way, Oxbridge do not have the sole monopoly of the most brilliant medics!

Here’s the evidence! (Click to enlarge)

All final year UK medical students compete nationally (against each other) by taking a two-part exam called the ‘SJT’ (50 marks – Situational Judgement Test) + the ‘EPM’ (50 marks – Educational Performance Measure) when applying for post-graduation Foundation Programme Training jobs in UK hospitals. The combined marks of ‘SJT’ + ‘EPM’ of each candidate is then used to decide which health deanery in the country they are being allocated to.

The evidence from the latest report (2017 – DS’s cohort) by the UK Foundation Programme (UKFP) shows amongst other things, the Maximum marks scored by the most brilliant student(s) from each school in the above exams. For both Oxford and Cambridge, the maximum marks scored is 89.43 marks – identical scores for both schools. (see penultimate column).

Of the 34 medical schools in the UK, a good 50% of them, i.e. 17 schools, have medic(s) scoring higher than 89.43 marks which confirm the claim that the best medics do not go to Oxbridge!

What this evidence tells us is that Oxbridge is effectively relegated to the second division – a far cry from the “dizzy heights”!

Indeed. I didn't go to Oxbridge and have done fine. I don't think Oxbridge medic sibling did badly - they have done very well and the course worked for them. Also it depends what you class things on - what they earn 20 years on or their published papers or if they are leader in their specialism or whatever or if they still work for the NHS etc etc.

Hi guys,
DS is in Year 12 and wants to do medicine next year, he's got his heart set on Leeds.

Just wondering how you helped your kids out, anyone in a similar situation?

There's a few courses available that offer UCAS proof reading and practise interviews - what are your thoughts on them? Would you consider putting your child through them? I have been told there are already a wealth of free resources available - can you imagine there being a demand for paid courses? If the free courses are so abundant and effective then why do paid courses even exist? Asking because there's a skype-based course that has limited spaces!

On another note, does the application/interview process vary a lot between universities? What is the consensus between universities, if any?

Thanks guys .

On another note, does the application/interview process vary a lot between universities? What is the consensus between universities, if any?

www.medschools.ac.uk/studying-medicine/applications/entry-requirements

Something for your DS to read pver his cornflakes

I would say it’s too early to be worrying about interview formats. He needs to focus on optimising his chances of getting an interview. Assuming his predicted grades will meet the standard requirements, that means focussing on the UKCAT and/or BMAT and having a little bit of relevant volunteering or work experience he can spin in the personal statement.

Things change every year but my dd is at Leeds so happy to share an specific info relating to there.