Tips for applicants/mentors to medicine at Oxbridge, Imperial, UCH.

[jamesforsythe]

Medical School at Oxbridge or Imperial/UCH

I'm a consultant dr. and my wife is a former dr. and admissions at Imperial Medicine and hence I am asked a lot about getting into medicine at Oxbridge, Imperial and UCH. I cannot speak for the many other excellent schools.

Firstly, Maths & Chem. both required - 3 &/or 4th A level grade A
(usually 4 A levels 2 x A* 2 x A, 1 x A if strong suite of GCSE's
(12A*/A is typical)

Re : Physics vs Biol A level. Biology is no better than Physics because no complex human biology is taught on any A level syllabi, which is why the gear-change in complexity once at med school in Biochemistry and Physiology slightly throws some candidates in year one.

Also, many applicants are thrown by the ubiquitous use of Applied Maths in modern medicine and research. You cannot really fudge your way here if you're just average at maths. But, you can apply for teaching support - in your limited extra time.

At Oxbridge, Imperial and UCH all that stuff about sport etc is cool but it is secondary to being truly excellent at maths and all sciences,having a superb school report - and having done some reading into medicine. IE at these schools you will very likely be questioned on what you claim to be interested in. Eg: An applicant claiming to be interested in Psychiatry as a career might reasonaly expect the question : may we discuss book(s) you have read?

But - note this well - the more difficult the questions are getting at your interview, the more interested the faculty is in you. If you've really done some reading into a field, they'll be impressed, provided you've understood it (even some of it)

Lastly, it's true: getting into Medicine is harder than the degree. Medicine is lots of hard work but, it's not as intellectually demanding as for example - the Cambridge Maths Tripos

• I know because I switched from that to medicine myself!

Good luck to all med school candidates and their parents.

www.uniq.ox.ac.uk applications are still open for a few more days.

quite right about the places Skiiton, why I think comment is best from those currently involved in the process.

Finnto there may be 10 applicants per place for some schools, but some some will be offered and accept places elsewhere. There are 20, 730 applicants this year. I'm not up on current medical school places but the Department of Health say 6,000 graduate each year and obviously some drop out. So say 6,300 places, going up to 6800 this year. Applicants have about a 1 in 3 chance of a place on average.

Obviously it's more complicated than that as some people apply who have little chance of ever being accepted.

So it's not a piece of cake but it shouldnt be. Any applicant who lacks determination wont make it through a long course. If they lack initiative they'll never make a good doctor.

Families not on the breadline can pay for a couple of books and internet access to do some research on applying. They can also get to their nearest medical school for an open day.

Work experience is useful for testing if your child really wants to be a doctor. Questions about it show whether you understand what a doctor needs and give you a chance to explain how you think you demonstrate it. It also provides a chance to show you are able to work with elderly people - one person on here said their child didnt want to do that, they will have to in a medical training. Another said their child didnt like getting their hands dirty - and they want to apply for a profession where it is said you should choose your specialty by what bodily fluids you can cope with. You dont have to have WE, you do need to demonstrate understanding and ability.

Snowflakes waste everyone's time and should apply for something more suitable.

alreadytaken yes, my own DS did exactly what you suggest in your pre-penultimate paragraph. Necessary but sufficient.

I also agree about initiative which is why DS did all the looking at websites and I did none. That has nothing to do with not being interested. You definitely need that level of initiative as an absolute minimum. MN would have parents believe that they need to do heaps of research themselves and examine documents linked to on threads and accompany DC on multiple visits etc etc. It's just not true.

I'm surprised that anyone who considers elderly people a no go area also considers that they have the right attitude for becoming a doctor. I've also been floored by an aspiring doctor on these threads apparently being strongly prejudiced against a particular English accent.... Good luck to that applicant if they succeed and are faced with a patient with that accent on their ward or in their surgery. Some of the things one reads here are astonishing!

Thanks for making these points, alreadytaken and goodbyestranger. We do get very frustrated with applicants who see medicine as some kind of refined, abstract, scientific pursuit, when it's actually about blood, shit, vomit, pus, dementia & psychosis and applying your intellect while someone is screaming at you (possibly in a Scouse accent) and twenty other people are waiting to be seen. Yes, you should be a scholar & scientist as well as a practitioner & a professional, but if you want to be just one of these things, rather than all of them, you need to find a different career path.

Despite Stranger's assertion, many 17 year olds will struggle with the complexity of a medical school application. In many ways it is easier for the more academic. They have their grades, they have their BMAT, and they apply for one of the Universities mentioned by OP. If they are engaged, motivated and well read, they should get through.

It gets harder for applicants whose application is a bit more patchy. They need to be strategic. I was tipped off by a school run friend whose bright elder child had refused to listen, applied to the places he wanted to go to and received four rejections. Next year and wiser, he got three offers. Interestingly many who are accepted by Triangle Schools (if that is the right term for OPs examples) are rejected elsewhere. Only very exceptional applicants will tick everyone's boxes.

DD was ill, so just getting her application in was an achievement, otherwise I would have got her to do the research albeit with some guidance. But even so medical applicants are busy. Many taking four A levels, volunteering/shadowing (and some schools require you to provide details with contacts), and engaged in school and other activities (again at least one school wants to see evidence of engagement within the community.

OP rightly refers to "mentors". My guess is that the biggest reason for suitable applicants not getting places is because they have not had the right support and advice, either from schools, parents, friends or the internet (TSR, imperfect as it is, along with University websites, makes research a lot easier). Nothing to do with money.

Skiiltan, I understand that the first anatomy session shocks a few. DD has also found that a decade of helping me support a difficult mother with dementia has helped with the ethics part of her course. I guess it is a case of the more, and the broader, experience the better. Placement involves working as an HCA on a challenging ward, with the need to cope various bodily fluids. One difference which we had not fully appreciated, is how courses vary. Friends at Cambridge are burning the midnight oil and writing essays, whilst DD's course appears to be a lot more hands-on. (Thought there is still a lot to learn.) She enjoys the more practical aspects. I assume the variation in entry requirements reflects the different demands of various courses.

Needmoresleep - One of the points we make to sixth-formers is that all medical graduates have to meet the same set of learning outcomes, defined by the GMC. So they will have to learn the same things wherever they go: they'll just learn them in a different order and through different experiences. I think it's inevitable, also, that students who have done fairly undiluted medical science in their first 2-3 years will have learned more of it than those doing courses elsewhere with less of a clinical/pre-clinical split. Whether they remember it - and can apply it - after graduation is a different matter.

The choice of where to study - if there is a choice when entry requirements and selection methods are taken into account - is really a case of horses for courses. Many students feel very nervous about seeing patients without having acquired a solid body of medical science knowledge first. These will tend towards courses with lots of lectures and only a low level of patient contact in early years. Others very definitely want to find out about being a doctor from the outset and are prepared to pick up the science as they go along. These tend towards courses with lots of patient contact throughout and with science learning mostly done through case-based tutorials and self/group-study. The way I describe them is as more traditional courses, where you are told what you need to learn at the beginning but only find out two or three years later why you needed to learn it, versus more "modern" courses, where it's obvious from the beginning why you're learning stuff but it's much more up to you to work out exactly what it is you need to learn. Some students are bored by the former; others are frightened by the latter. They have to work out what's right for them.

Yes, the first anatomy session takes a few by surprise. The fainters are usually large males, though, so parents of petite daughters have less to worry about. It's not just the sight of a (naked and grey) dead body that makes people feel faint: it's also the smell of formaldehyde and being in a crowd of other students who are also anxious. Remember that most UK medical schools no longer do whole-body dissection, so for many students the experience will be quite different. That said, sometimes the prosections performed by professionals will have been done in situ rather than on isolated body parts, so students are still likely to be seeing dead bodies.

The other thing that catches them out is the amount of psychology & sociology they have to learn. Getting students who have done three science A-levels to start thinking about patients as people - and as members of families, workforces, communities & populations - rather than collections of signs & symptoms is quite a challenge.

Needmoresleep: Thank you for your advice, which has stuck to the OP's topic.
His thread centred around which academic subjects are the most important to excel in if you're a prospective medic.
I took his post on face value and tried to stick to the subject matter too. I've seen his previous posts and it would have been all too easy to descend into an ad hominem polemic about privilege - I've seen that his child went to Eton, for example, and as a consultant he's obviously nowhere near the breadline. Private education is, however, divisive and unfair. And yes, Needmoresleep, it's all about money too. You are paying to remove the worry about whether your child has the best teaching to get the best grades and the best support for extras. But I'm not going to be hypocritical and say I would refuse to send DC to an independent school if it were an option either. I would jump at the chance, given that he's a UK ranked athlete and would benefit massively from the support such pupils get in the form of private coaches and one to one tutoring after missed lessons due to competitions, etc. But this sort of point scoring is unhelpful and is becoming markedly vicious on this thread. We all have our strengths as Needmoresleep says. Calling other people's children "snowflakes" is just obnoxious, especially as other posters have detailed issues their* children have had with anxiety. I don't know, Already Taken,* how you logically introduced the snowflake subject into your thinking. It's a non sequitur to the original conversation which was constructive and civilised. And if anything my DC has the opposite problem. His grade predictions are just marginally below requirements. I emphasise "marginally" before somebody comes along and flames me for being deluded about his intellect. He found his own shadowing in a top teaching hospital and passed historical work exp contacts on to his school so that pupils coming up behind him can make use of it. And he has guts aplenty, since another poster mentions visceral matter. Since we don't own a car, he travels around the country by public transport to various comps, sometimes getting up at 5:30am. He trains with, and competes against, adults in often freezing conditions and year round. But more importantly, we have tried (not always successfully) to teach him to be kind and compassionate and to have integrity. And that, money cannot buy!

finnto I'm slightly at a loss. I don't see any vicious point scoring about private education on this thread. The snowflake comment was unnecessary and I'm not sure who it was directed to but I don't quite understand the genesis of all your anger. All my DC have been at state school and my income is spread exceedingly thing. Clearly my contribution hasn't reassured you that money isn't required for a successful application but all I can do is re-iterate that. Plenty of the successful applicants from our school are not from well off backgrounds. Some are, but just as many aren't.

spread thin!

Around 50 per cent of state schools send zero pupils to med school. Eighty per cent of successful applicants come from 20 per cent of schools, overwhelmingly private.
Correlations between wealth of parent and success of pupil seen across many variables, occupation/type of school etc.

Your chances are undeniably much reduced if from a poorer background. (From Med Schools Council). I agree, it's still possible but the odds are against you.
Was surprised posters refrained from knocking the consultant as he dispatched wisdom from his Mount Olympus of the medical world. Thread was better for it, IMO. Was more annoyed about "snowflake" rant. No one would describe DC thus. But thought it bloody rude since other parents had opened up about DC with anxiety issues.

Why should posters knock a consultant who chooses to spend a good wodge of his hard earned income on sending his DS to Eton and DD to SPGS? His earnings, his choice. Very standard for a London based consultant I'd have thought. Doesn't bother me in the slightest I have to say, both are great schools. I'd do something similar if I could.

I wonder how many of those 50% you refer to have no applicants to med school year on year. Different issue I know but we may very well not be seeing rejections at those schools, merely no applications - not great, but different issue.

If one does have DC at state school it does them no good whatsoever to go forward to applications nursing a big lack of confidence about what the other half have had in terms of advantage.

Skiiltan, a really useful post. DD is both academic and dyslexic and so felt teaching approach should be an important part of the decision, yet was not sure what style might suit her more. In the event, because of her illness, she took a last minute gap year, to discover she is in the first year of a new seemingly "modern" course. Inevitably we have picked up a certain amount of what might be termed snobbishness from the Oxbridge brigade. And she has had to adapt to learning what she needs (not entirely - obviously) by herself. But she is loving the practical approach, and the chance to understand why she needs various bits of learning. Which seems to be motivating her to secure her knowledge. A more academic approach to pre-clinical might have been easier but less interesting. Being able to re-watch lectures, is particularly valuable for her, something not all schools seem to offer.

finnto. Having got through the the process with DD I am inevitably more sanguine. However I do remember it feeling like a mountain to be climbed. From a mother's perspective it felt straight unfair that DD might not get a place. (In case it helps every year at her private school good applicants did not get places either, though her lovely friend did get the place she wanted the following year.) Assuming your DS is in Yr 13, the most important thing is to nail the three As. Park the rest as much as you can, though it is not easy. A gap year can be a very positive thing. Being a sports person should help in many places (though perhaps less in OPs schools) as it demonstrates an ability to juggle and resilience and presumably he has picked up a certain amount of human biology. There is a certain logic that suggests that the place that wants a student is probably offering the right course for that student. Fingers crossed. This is the first major step in most students' adult lives. The process is so competitive, rejection can be so hard for those who have never faced it before, and it all takes so long. Get those As, make sure he meets the criteria of where he is applying, treat it as a two year process, and he should be OK.

finnto is your main frustration that you feel your DS has been predicted slightly on the conservative side and that that may well scupper a fair crack at getting a place?

Correct, Goodbye Stranger. His grades just slightly off but PS and volunteering/aptitude will tick all the boxes. Due to predictions he's unlikely to get past admin filtering in round one. We know already that some of his year in different schools have been given AAA despite equivalent or worse Yr12 Mock results. These pupils now getting interviews and potentially offers to inspire them to higher performance in final exams. The whole system stinks!

I'm trying to keep him motivated. I don't have to educate him about disparity of opportunity. He has friends at Westminster and a boy at St Paul's is in a national music ensemble he plays in. He hears about the connections they have access to and it doesn't seem to affect their friendships. They socialise and bring different qualities to each other's life experiences.

I'm not so accepting of this status quo, however. I work in an area where most people have gone to Oxbridge. I've seen first hand how nepotism and connections more often determine who gets hired than not. Access to the top professions needs to open up and not be so opaque.

I think the snowflakes comment was unnecessary.

I am a consultant in a niche field which involves dealing with emergencies and of course there is a lot of bodily fluid involved!
I have fainted in anatomy halls, seeing surgery etc., but this has not prevented me from achieving what I have.

Let's not forget they are just kids- they may have got into medical college but they require time to mature, to handle these things. No amount of exposure in the community is going to prepare you for reality.

Regarding anxiety levels - there is so much pressure on youngsters now a days. The whole medical progress, which I have only been looking at over the last week or so, is not for faint hearted. My experience is almost all medical universities recognise the stress medical students go through - financial, illness in family, exams etc., and are very supportive. I must say these support mechanism never existed when I was training.
They are closely supervised not by the consultant they work for but someone else and sometimes in some other hospital - this enables them to be open up about the issues they face. It is not an ideal situation but lot better than what I had when in training. One of the recent students I supervised lost her brother in Nigeria ( the family has fled Yemen) and had to write her exams, do on calls and had no one with her- well that is pressure!

I've got a good degree of sympathy with all that finnto but you have to ignore it if you're not in that world. Your DS does sound as though he has absolutely masses going for him, so much more than most DC. In his circumstances his best strategy by far is to write this year off application wise, ace his summer exams, apply for entry in 2019 then enjoy a well deserved year off.

Cross post ProfLayton - completely agree. DS started his last sixth year exam at 4.30pm today and phoned a few minutes ago to say the results are out and he's a doctor, in effect. But honestly finnto, it's been a slog, although an enjoyable slog, so a few months off may be a serious bonus for your DS. Difficult to believe a DC with so many talents won't get where he wants in the end.

Thank you Goodbyestranger. And congratulations to your DC!

goodbyestranger how old was your DS when he managed to get some medical work experience? DD won't turn 18 until after she leaves school, and the only work experience she has managed to get was in a care home. The hospital, GP and pharmacy have categorically told her that she can't do any until she is 18. It looks like her med school application might take 2 years so she can get the work experience.

LJ- please ask your Dd to contact the undergraduate department in your local university hospital. It should not be a problem for under 18s to get work experience but it would mean doing some paperwork. Lot of hospitals will have dedicated program for sixth formers and they are heavily subscribed. Pm me if you want - happy to help in whatever way I can!

Lonicera he's a late March birthday so was exactly middle of the age range in his school year. I've been trying to work out the dates accurately:

1. Week in a local care home October Y11, so 15 yrs 7.
2. The outreach week at the nearest big hospital Y11 May/ June, so 16yrs 2.
3. GP surgery, out of hours and special ear clinics with the GP February Y12, so 16 yrs 10.

None of these were through family members or friends Lonicera and what puzzles me is that all the kids at school seem to get work experience in Y11 and Y12 though admittedly a reasonable number do have parents who are doctors or nurses - but by no means all. It seems very bad luck and I really haven't come across the age bar before (well 16 definitely yes but 18 no). She'll have to explain how hard she's tried at any interview - not her fault, it must just be a thing in your area.

Cross post. Yup, the week at the hospital was designed for Y11 and Y12, not for over 18s. The problem your DD has is that she's hoping for an offer this year although I'd grab any work experience going if I was her, it can only help but it may not be decisive. DS1 had had a part time job in a cafe from Y9 and that seemed a good substitute for medical work experience as far as the interviews went - has your DD worked? If so, I wouldn't worry too much.

Thanks for your replies

DD didn't think she had the academic capability to apply for medicine until we were halfway through doing university open days last summer. The assistant principal at her 6th form confirmed that she thought DD wasn't punching above her weight, but it meant that we weren't seriously looking at medical schools and ways of getting into medical school until last July.

She has a pretty good set of GCSEs (5A*, 3A, 2B), a decent UKCAT score and the right grade predictions for A levels - clearly sufficient to land herself at least one MMI at a medical school.

We don't have any contacts at any medical establishments who can help. One of my friends is a doctor and has told me that they don't allow any shadowing at all at her hospital for patient confidentiality reasons.

She has been volunteering at a care home but is limited in what she can do because she is still 17. She has also done medical taster days at Leeds and Imperial, a first aid course and is a young leader at Brownies.

Lonicera, don't forget places like pharmacies and children's play centres. All these places offer insight into caring roles. Also, I have heard universities say they discount experience as they know that people can need contacts to access it. I agree that evidence of work experience generally is important, and also a proven interest in the subject. For some universities, the personal statement carries a lot of weight, and they are hoping to find people with interests outside study.

I know it all seems a tall order for busy students, though!