DD rejected from all PhD applications- help!

[Norugratsatall]

DD has applied to four or five different PhD programmes at various institutions such as Francis Crick, ICR etc and had rejections from them all (I think she has yet to hear back from one). She has an MSc in immunology (Merit) and a first class undergrad biomedical science degree. She's currently working as a Research Assistant for a London University. This post is one year though and she needs a PhD to progress further.

I'm hoping someone who works in admissions for this type of institution can help me to help her. My area is arts/humanities so not able to help her myself. No feedback is provided and so she's unaware if it's her personal statement that is the problem or the fact that her Masters is not a distinction.

She is distraught at these rejections and her confidence is at rock bottom whilst simultaneously being aware that it's a hugely competitive field.

Some advice from someone qualified to help would be greatly appreciated. TIA.

When I say 'advice' I mean on how to secure a successful application (or at least get an interview!).

Hmm it's really really hard at the moment and a bit of a lottery I think. This is the case from everything from phd studentships to fellowships to grants in my field (medic research).

How many publications does she have? Has she presented work at conference? Can she demonstrate impact of her work? Is she talking in her application about her career ambitions?

As far as I'm aware your masters grade shouldn't count against you unless you're in a highly competitive year group.

I'd also say that 1 year as an RA is not a lot these days and perhaps she could find another RA post, increase her outputs and try again next year?

Bunloaf - thanks for taking the trouble to reply, much appreciated. Re: publications, yes she says she will have her name on the research paper for which she is currently working as an RA. She did a poster presentation on her current work at this year's immunology conference in Brighton. Yes, she talks about her future career ambitions in her statements, it's so frustrating not knowing where she's going wrong!

She will look for another RA post if she's unable to secure a PhD but she's says they're few and far between. She was very lucky to get offered the one she's currently doing.

I'm not a higher Ed expert but I know from colleagues that Francis Crick is incredibly sought after and competitive to get into and I assume Imperial will be as well. Maybe it's not so much that she's doing something wrong as that she's up against very stiff competition?

Is she approaching individual supervisors or just applying blind? For me getting a supervisor to agree BEFORE I applied was key. Has she had anyone look over her proposal?

Sophie - thanks for replying. Imperial is the one place she's not applied to but yes she's aware that these institutions are prestigious and probably 'cream off'the best candidates. I think, on paper, her credentials are good but she's not getting interviews.

Tooth - she's applying to a 'programme' rather than approaching a supervisor I think.

Has she spoken to a potential main supervisor? We insist our enquirers do before they apply to ascertain whether their topic can be supported in the first instance and then to develop their proposal. HTH.

And she didn't have to do a Proposal as such, just apply to a programme. I'm not au feu with all the ins and outs of it. I read her statement for her but was only really able to advise on grammar etc as I know nothing about science!

Hogtini- thank you. No, she didn't have to put together a proposal for this type of PhD application.

Hi OP - you might want to post in Academic's corner.

I would disagree - there are loads of PhD studentships out there, but applicants are being very picky about their "favourite fields" or "pet topics" as well as where they will study. While I agree that choice of institution and supervisor matters a lot, there are choices beyond the golden triangle.

Key factors to go through to interview stages for PhD depends on the PhD programme - I personally do not like DTPs structure or principle and would go for a bona fide old-school project with stand-alone funding if there are any.

In my field/uni (biomed sciences in RG uni) we are specifically looking for:

• a very strong undergrad / master dissertation project - at distinction level
• very strong numerical skills, with good graps of stats and / or coding
• genuine enthusiasm for science in general (and not just one pet area) since academic science demand resilience and acceptance of changes of direction
• a sense of "expertise" coming out from the CV / letter (maybe a specific technique, or skill that can be evidenced)
• an idea of why a PhD is needed (in term of pathway to a career)
• some evidence of leadership (student rep, volunteering, team captaincy)
• evidence of independent working and creative thinking
• a summer elective / internship / scholarship in a lab over the summer is a plus, same with awards and prizes for academic work
• a publication or contribution to a conference are desirables, but we accept that not all students will have been given the opportunity

Obviously, the letter should be unique / tailored etc. If there is an opportunity to get in touch informally for further info, it is worth considering.

Cannot think of more just now - she needs to hang in there. It is a brutal career (in term of rejection and deceptions) so she needs to build up her resilience. Having a good strong academic mentor / referee (from pas MSc course / current supervisor) who can advocate for her / recommend her / guide her goes a long way.

Was her MSC and undergrad at a 'prestigious' university? Is she applying to uni programmes that are at unis of equal status or is she trying to move 'up' in uni status if you see what I mean? I'm on a PHD programme and where I'd been and who I knew were vital. Has she got amazing academic references etc? Good luck to her.

Where did she do her undergraduate degree?
PhDs at those two institutes will be very competitive indeed and many successful applicants will have practical experience as RAs, possibly at those or other excellent institutes and will have proven themselves to potential supervisors

As a general principle generic applications without genuine evidence of specific interest in a research topic are difficult to judge and very well qualified applicants are more likely to succeed.

I also second getting a supervisor before applying. I reached out to someone and got their agreement to supervise me first. They were then pivitol in getting me onto the programme.

Where’s her undergraduate and masters from? Has she looked at Oxbridge? To be honest I would much prefer a straight science undergraduate (biochem/Chemistry), but a decent Masters would go a long way. Is there scope to stay at the place she is at now? A few of our students were RAs who decided to do a PhD, but it’s a bit less common now we offer a four year course (3x rotations in the first year and then the three year PHD).

Experiance seems to be the thing they look for ironic seeming as a PhD is supposed to be awesome for gaining science experience.

Southamptons are open now.

But I know lots in better positions than your dd getting turned down including myself

Thanks all!

Just to answer a few questions.

Yes her undergrad and postgrad dissertation were both high distinctions.

Yes she lots of experience of leadership, responsibilities etc which are all on her CV.

No she has not won any prizes sadly.

Her undergrad was at a top 50 non RG uni, her postgrad was at London RG uni.

She has been to,d by people in her lab including her PI that PhDs at generic studentship programmes (where you don't actually know which programme you will end up doing iyswim) are held in higher esteem than individual PhD proposals.

re Programmes "held in higher esteem than individual PhD proposals"

absolutely not in my experience - DTP programmes are often awkward and the student-supervisor matching very very odd in some instances. I have a DTP student who was allocated to my lab just now - I cannot "reject" her, as my project is open to the whole DTP pool, but she is just the wrong fit for us. I think I am also the wrong fit for her, and this will make for 3 difficult years.

The relationship student-supervisor is key, then the institution - "programmes" in themselves do not impact much on the value of a PhD, which ultimately is a rather solitary pursuit, nevermind whichever cohort you fall with.

sofabitch - yep, experience is critical, because PhDs cost £££, the experience is sometimes brutal, and most often undergrad/MSc studies do not really prepare you for that transition.

Thank you everyone. These insights are very very helpful and I have relayed all your advice to my DD. I appreciate you taking the time to post at a very busy time of year!

She has been told by people in her lab including her PI that PhDs at generic studentship programmes (where you don't actually know which programme you will end up doing iyswim) are held in higher esteem than individual PhD proposals.
I disagree with Marasme in that the generic studentships at highly rated research institutes such as FC, Imoerial etc are more competitive to get on and therefore simply not having a 2:1/1st science degree from a top 5 university may be enough to exclude candidates. To put it bluntly, on paper for these her credentials are not good enough for the screening process.
However whether she needs one of these PhDs programmes a step for a successful research career is a different question and the answer is no.
The aim from a PhD IMO is to spend 3-4 years in a well led, productive laboratory, gaining at least one high impact publications and preferably experience in some cutting edge technique, bioinformatics etc. In order to achieve that she has to have the right environment but also the right abilities including initiative i.e. not having to be led every step of the way for technical troubleshoooting, ideas and finding help in developing techniques

If she is impressing as a RA at one such institute (and it sounds as though she is doing well for under a year there) then she is a good position to be recommended. She should also have an idea, including from the conference, of the good productive labs and potential areas she wants to work on. All that should be used to apply for individual PhD studentships. Importantly she should make sure that she visits and has really researched the topic of the PhD.
Time is short so she should also be open to a second RA post, again aiming for a highly rated lab that will add to what she has already gained in experience and research networking.

@senioracademic thank you for replying. So are you saying that DTPs are not necessarily more beneficial for her career than individual phds? She seems very fixated on these DTPs almost to the exclusion of other routes. she has impressed so far as an RA (was offered the role over other candidates) and has a good advocate/mentor in her lab but it seems to have done her little good so far. I think she also wanted to apply to a DTPs as she is only 23 and, as yet, undecided where she would like her future science career to take her and these programmes give flexibility to 'choose from a list' once accepted on a programme - I think! Sorry, I'm not from a science (or academics!) background so it's all a bit new to me!

I think that it s important to know why to do a PhD. A good PhD (DTP or not) will develop skills that are relevant and transferable to a range of careers.

I don't really rate DTPs - I am not saying they are bad - just that the people coming out of them are not more desirable than regular individual studentships. And I don t like the "pick from a list" approach.

She needs to consider all her options if she is genuinely into going for a PhD. There are many great labs all over the country, many with positions not DTP affiliated.

@Marasme. Thank you. Yes I know what you're saying makes sense. Even with my lack of knowledge of the sector, I suspected this. I have tried to gently suggest this but I fear it's falling on deaf ears. I think she needs to regroup after Xmas and consider all her options.