3 vs 4 A-levels and Uni offers

[pipilangstrumpf]

I understand that 3 A-levels are sufficient to apply to a UK University and that their offers are based on the 3 subjects studied.

Does anyone know what offers are made when applicants study 4 A-levels? Do Unis make offers based on all 4 subjects?

Not for all or even most subjects at Oxbridge and Imperial.

I personally think that the claim even "some" medical schools (outside Oxbridge) historically had a majority of successful applicants offered 4+ A levels is unlikely to be true.

And historical data is not a good guide, due to the current changes to linear A levels and cuts in sixth form funding.

user my comments were reserved exclusively to Medicine.

I've been very precise in my wording and indeed very consistent. I've used the term 'lots' throughout this thread, not 'the majority'. It's a pointless exercise to alter the wording of what a poster has said in order to say it's bunkum.

pipilangstrumpf I think all we can fairly say is that user appears to have conceded the point that lots of successful Oxford and Cambridge medical applicants have been offering four or more A levels :)

This may change with linear A levels and budgetary constraints, as everyone has agreed, or it may be that it doesn't, in which case that implies that proportionately more applicants from the independent sector or from selective schools still offering four A levels to their top students will get offers. I am absolutely not advocating that that would be a good thing!

Feedback from DD is that a surprising (to her at least) number seem to have entered her medical school with contextual offers, ie AAB. This is backed by the CUG data which suggests entrants to most medical schools have roughly similar results with only Oxbridge out in front. Then you get three Scottish Universities (Scottish qualifications seem to translate well into UCAS points and they may have a lot of well qualified EU applicants) and QMUL which used to reward those offering 4.

She is fine with this. She will have 5/6 years at University as well as two years FY training, so you might as well be somewhere nice, with a chance to develop interests outside medicine. With such a range in educational backgrounds they are having, from DD's perspective, quite a gentle introduction, which she does not mind at all. Peers who opted for Cambridge, though this may not be true for all, seem to be working very very hard indeed. Who knows what constitutes a "top" medical school. And who will produce the "best" doctor.

Back to, you really don't need more than three, but more learning rarely goes amiss.

Back to, you really don't need more than three, but more learning rarely goes amiss.

But AAA clearly outranks AABB when it comes to medical school admissions i.e. if doing 4 (in addition to appropriate work experience etc) causes you to drop grades then 4 is not a good idea.

Much more support is offered in top private schools, meaning that doing 4 is a little "easier" in such schools.

Its not really support, but almost training, which started at prep school. Homework needs to be done so you just do it, and get on with other things. And you listen in class, so you keep revision to a minimum. You ask if you don't understand. (A weird one for DS was that in his first year no one ever spoke in class, whereas a friend suggested her state educated DD saw seeing her tutor akin to knocking on the staff room door at lunchtime. Something you would never do..)

One advantage for DC has been that they were never top of the class, or even close, so have no ambitions to be. It is then a surprise to find themselves (both non Oxbridge) relatively high in their respective year groups (for now at least). DD is surprised just how hard some of her peers are working, in some cases quite inefficiently. Sometimes driven by having always been top at school and wanting to stay there.

So do four if you can manage four, as being able to effectively juggle stuff is good training. It ought to mean that the volume of work at University is less of a step up. But only do this is if you enjoy the subjects and if it does not impact on overall grades. (I don't think either of mine would have spend more time on three subjects. Just more time gaming.)

Yes Needmoresleep it's back to the point I made at the outset about medical schools looking for things aside from the purely academic, including Oxbridge (judging by their interview questions if nothing else ). And that therefore being able to perform at A level in four subjects as well as working for money, doing the various work experience placements and extra curriculars on top does imply that a student has the capacity to deal with the unusually heavy workload that medical school brings with it. The mantra has always been better three good grades than four mediocre, but it's not difficult to see that four A are better than three A*.

I don't think DS would have done any more for his three subjects either, had he dropped one - some students are just able to deal with four as easily as three and it's certainly meant the transition to the first year of the Oxford medical course was relatively painless. Not many drop out from Oxford though, fair to say (but we might be back to how many take how many subjects etc :)).

I don’t think more support is offered in independent schools to do four A levels. The work is the same for all students really. Medical students typically have to find time to do other things and juggle. If students have to work ludicrously hard to do three, then possibly they will have to continue to do this at university.

I remember saying that DD didn’t work ludicrously hard at uni and was utterly flamed on mn for that statement. It is the case though that some students can do what they need to do in a shorter time than others and are better equipped to be self reliant and Work smart. I will say it wasn’t a medic course though!

I think, on a fairly casual reading of medic school requirements, they differ. Bristol has a different assessment procedure as goodbye suggests. I would suggest therefore that 3 A levels is fine but look at all the other requirements and pick the medic schools that best fit the profile of the candidate and make sure the candidate nails them so 4 A levels are not necessary. Bristol makes offers below AAA for example and the A levels are not a huge percentage of the selection process. Elsewhere will be different so check it out.

Bit silly to flame you for that Bubbles! It's an enviable trait to produce good results with minimum effort, not one to be criticized (but envy was presumably the problem!) Life shouldn't be about making work expand to fill the time available unless work is what makes you happiest. Good for her.

Not many drop out where DD is either. Despite the seemingly large number of contextual offers and most "only" having three A levels. From what I can see they are making real effort to help students with the transition, including a gentle start and lots of testing. From what I hear, this does not happen as much at Oxbridge. Plus perhaps, at Oxbridge more students will have ambitions beyond being a GP or hospital doctor, so be more driven.

Its still useful for DD to have some initial headroom (I am sure that by the end results will bear little relation to entry grades) most of which seems to be spend on muddy sports fields.

Especially if she's had a slightly rocky start Needmoresleep. Muddy sports fields sound ideal as respite.

Pipil

More anecdotage

DS did 3 A levels. He started with 4 ( He did maths as well as his more essay based subjects. Love him as I do , I would have to admit he is a competent mathematician rather than a talented one. After 1/2 a term he decided ( with teachers' agreement ) that to get an excellent mark in his maths would compromise his ability to get good grades in his other subjects and as it wasn't necessary for the course he wanted , he dropped it. This was a pretty well regarded independent school and there was no pressure to do 4 rather than 3.

He went on to study History ( so this is not re Medicine) so the maths wasn't so important. Those of his peers who went down the more science route tended to do 4 ( one often being further maths) Also if he had had aspirations towards something like PPE or Economics then again he would have possibly made a different decision re the maths.

Re Bubble's point about the amount of work. I am a bit of a worrier , so I do sometimes wonder if he is doing enough. However , he is much more organised than me & has various EC things he wants to do - so I bite my lip and have to trust he is doing enough in his own mind to get the grades he thinks he wants / needs. I can't make him do more. We will find out in the summer if his plan is sound

goodbyestranger DD's state secondary school is one of the most underfunded in the country. Very few students take 4 A levels anyway, but even fewer are now. She dropped psychology because she hated it and it was extremely time consuming. The volume of homework coupled with the lack of free periods was just too much for her, and she was virtually on her knees by the end of year 12.

DD is also a young leader at Brownies and is volunteering at a care home.

She dropped psychology because she hated it

I don’t think you can do well in any subject you don’t enjoy, let alone hate. I would only recommend Alevels you enjoy/are good at and certainly as a 4th one.

Completely understood Lonicera and that's why I said what I said to you further up the thread. Our school is also reducing to three except for the most able students who also happen to actively want to study four.

However - very serious point here - if your DD was 'on her knees' with four subjects then she really will need to reflect on whether she wants to subject herself to the volume of work required at med school. It's genuinely a lot more volume than other subjects, no question. You don't need to be cleverer to study Medicine than other subjects (the grade requirements are purely a reflection of supply and demand), but you do need an ox-like constitution. I'd be concerned for any student going in it without that person being physically and mentally strong.

I agree goodbye, but she is adamant that this is what she wants to do, unfortunately.

pipilangstrumpf DD got an A at AS level in psychology, and her teacher said that she was throwing away an A* at A level by giving it up, but she finds it very boring and not challenging enough.

She finds chemistry challenging, but enjoys it - and needs it anyway.