3 vs 4 A-levels and Uni offers

[pipilangstrumpf]

I understand that 3 A-levels are sufficient to apply to a UK University and that their offers are based on the 3 subjects studied.

Does anyone know what offers are made when applicants study 4 A-levels? Do Unis make offers based on all 4 subjects?

Lonicera it's not to do with the new linear A levels. It's been the case for ever that the unis have said they prefer three good grades to four less good grades. With Medicine, lots of successful applicants are offering four grades, and four good grades. This, with Medicine, especially if combined with work, work experience, extra curriculars etc does demonstrate an ability to cope with heavy workloads which is a plus for medics. As I say, Medicine is a bit out there in terms of what selectors are looking for, Offers are almost always based on three A levels but this carries no implications whatsoever in terms of tutors' preferences.

So, would a dropped AS level at A grade help?

Lonicera lots of applicants also won't have four A levels, especially, as someone's already said, with so many state schools reducing the curriculum for budgetary reasons. It's not decisive in itself, as titchy said. I wouldn't worry in your DD's position, it's not like she's at a major independent from what you say.

Lonicera - it would be very dodgy if universities selected based on number of A levels taken - they'd be biased against state schools for one. So please don't worry. The vast majority of medical applicants and entrants apply with 3 and gain 3. While a 4th may demonstrate ability to deal with a big workload, it won't if the grades suffer. Spending Saturdays helping thenWRVS do rounds at the local hospital as well as an evening a week at your local hospice also demonstrate ability to cope with lots going on.

it's not like she's at a major independent from what you say.

Goodbyestranger - are you saying DC from 'major independents' should be taking 4 and everyone else 3 ? What is a 'major independent' and do admissions tutors have a different set of rules for them ?

A lot of successful applicants for the top medical schools offer four titchy.

Struggling to see why it would be unfair to expect more from students at top independents.

Some universities will adjust their offer for 4 if the subjects are all relevant. For example neighbour’s daughter is taking Maths, Biology, Chemistry, and Spanish. All of the medical schools she’s applied to want her to get at least an A in Spanish as her language skills are what sold her in the interview.

Going forward, as another poster has already said, it is more likely that students will be taking only 3 A levels (but 4 if FM or a native language) for both funding reasons and the fact that they will all be linear.

Many schools (including DS's school) will be starting them off on 4 subjects in year 12 with the view that one will be dropped by the end of the year, at Christmas or even earlier. This is to enable students to get a feel for the A level. Some are a big step up and the student might not be up to it. Some are because choices are made for subjects the student has never studied before eg. Economics, Psychology, Politics and they realise they are not what they thought they were going to be. This means the student can still progress to take 3 but allows a measure of flexibility.

His school allows 4 to A2 if FM or a native language.

(In fact if they are doing FM they do Pre-U Maths and Pre-U FM rather than A level).

If they can manage more than three, I see no harm.

1. It enables them to keep up subjects that might be useful at University. DS was able to take both history and double maths along with economics. DD took five STEM subjects, giving her a head start in medicine. (She apparently aced some health statistics problems last week - others will get there but it is nice to be familiar with some of the early content.) Breadth may also help them when it comes to applying for Masters/Intercalation.

1. It prepares you for the volume of work at University. DD had no frees at all at school, despite a longer than average school week. She now has something like 30 contact hours.

1. Taking more than three offers protection from dropping an odd grade, so make the summer of Yr13 busy but more relaxed.

DC would have dropped one like a shot had they started to struggle. They seem to have mastered both time management and the art of "good enough", both key life skills. They and their peers seemed to have plenty of time for other things. If asked how to manage, I think both would say that you need to listen in class. That is where the learning takes place. There has been some surprise later to see others happily skipping lectures.

Early advice for DS was to take double maths if he planned to take a degree with a high maths content, as it is easier to learn at school than at University. Often subjects are not "required", but they are expected to catch up quickly at a point when so much is new.

As for medics, Birmingham now give a different offer for those with four A levels. Cambridge, perhaps Imperial, sometimes give offers on four. QMUL used to give more points to those with four, but seems to have dropped this. Other than that I doubt that many look for more than three, as they will want to ensure all suitable applicants have an equal chance. But generally a broader education is a good thing, so if you can, why not?

It isn't true that most medics offer four - most offer three.

While as I've said many will have four, only having three will not make any difference to the likelihood of getting an offer.

Do not EVER encourage your kid to take four thinking it'll make it a little easier to get an offer unless you can absolutely guarantee grades will not be affected.

Whilst it's true that a few do adjust the offer if the applicant has four, most offer based on three and medicine is so competitive you'd be a fool not to want to maximise your chances of as many offers as possible.

Titchy, you may both be right. Stranger's experience is of Oxford. If you filter the Complete University Guide by Entry Standards, the average Oxford medic has about 100 UCAS points above those at most other medical schools, which given As and A*s are required everywhere, suggests that many Oxford medics are offering a fourth A level. .

Yes Needmoresleep. I've said that many successful applicants to top med schools offer four. I don't suppose it's relevant what most applicants offer, it's what most successful applicants offer that's important.

titchy where are your numbers coming from, out of interest? I'm curious about how the stats break down.

But generally a broader education is a good thing, so if you can, why not?

I agree with this. In fact, some foreign Universities require 4 A-levels from British students (including Maths, a Science and foreign language) as anything less does not count as a ‘broad’ education. (Yes, I know Alevels are often more in-depth etc).

I work in the sector so have access to data that isn't for public consumption so can't share sorry. Unless you do an FoI

Yes I agree a broader education is good!

Ok titchy that's fine, obviously, but nevertheless you'll be able to access your secret data to tell us how many Medicine applicants in any given recent year applied with three A levels and how many with four, and then give the figures for those applicants who were successful. If you could do that for all medical schools and then for the top ten that would also be helpful. I doubt that breaches any secret squirrel code :) You seem so clear that most successful applicants to top medical schools don't apply with four.

How do you define “top”? Just out of interest. Many medical students are very happy to get offered any medical place and surely do not apply to the ones they perceive as most difficult to get into? (Are these the top ones?)

It almost certainly ends up as horses for courses! Students with 3 A levels probably
apply to less stellar institutions because they feel they will be the same as everyone else. The recruitment of many medics at Oxford etc with 4 A levels does lead to criticism of bias towards students who have the opportunity to do this at a few schools (as on the other thread). However for normal human beings, 3 is fine!

I work in the sector so have access to data that isn't for public consumption so can't share sorry.

Yes, those of who work in HE have access to detailed data from UCAS and HESA.

Like Titchy, I simply don't believe that non-selective state school applicants to medicine are very likely to have four A levels. In the recent past this may well have been different from students coming from grammars and private schools. It is obviously different for Oxbridge medicine where, as needmoresleep writes, one can see from the average incoming UCAS points that candidates are often offering more than 3 A levels.

I have not personally done the break down for medicine specifically, but I am extremely familiar with the data for maths and physical sciences. If a majority of students are coming in with 4 A levels for a selective course that is requiring As/A stars, then the average entry tariff (in old UCAS points) is typically above 500. Thus for Oxbridge Maths, Imperial Physics etc the majority of students are coming in with 4 A levels. Very few medical schools had average numbers above 500 (in old UCAS points) suggesting that it was simply not the case that a majority of entrants had 4 A levels.

Ok titchy that's fine, obviously, but nevertheless you'll be able to access your secret data to tell us how many Medicine applicants in any given recent year applied with three A levels and how many with four, and then give the figures for those applicants who were successful. If you could do that for all medical schools and then for the top ten that would also be helpful. I doubt that breaches any secret squirrel code smile You seem so clear that most successful applicants to top medical schools don't apply with four.

Yes I could - on the other hand I could spend the three or four hours of work time and resource that would take to do some actual work that my institution pays me for, and not risk my job just to prove a point

Do an FoI if you're that determined to prove me wrong.

You're narrowing it down to non selective state user. I didn't narrow it down. If you have access to the data you'll see the breakdown of school type too.

Bubbles I threw out 'top' very loosely, but I'd certainly include Oxford, Cambridge, UCL, Imperial, Birmingham and Bristol (but Bristol are rather more wide ranging in their selection process I think).

Touchy titchy!

It's really not a problem, I only asked you to dial up something which I know is dead easy to find.

Also, user, on the semantics, I said that lots of successful applicants to top medical schools offer four, not that all applicants to all medical schools are very likely to offer four. You aren't scrutinising words with sufficient care.

...something which I know is dead easy to find

Do you know that?

Not touchy, but don't appreciate the passive-aggressive 'secret squirrel' reference.

I, and others who work in HE, spend a lot of our time, both on MN and in the real world, trying to dispel the myriad of myths around university admissions, and posters such as yourself, with nothing more than anecdote, do more harm than good in that respect.

titchy you've no basis for saying I operate purely on anecdote as you can have no idea. Thanks. Apologies if you thought squirrel comment was pa. Also, I've no interest in anything other than facts, certainly none in causing baseless consternation - but I think we've had this conversation in a previous thread. I think you should take care before extrapolating from your own subject over to Medicine that's all, because it's a different beast, with more than the purely academic being assessed.

So to summarise, Unis like Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial and some medical Schools have a majority of applicants offering 4 or more A-levels?