Oxbridge 'favours' students from London and South-East

[jeanne16]

Apparently 48% of students come from London and the South-East with Richmond being a particular hotspot. Should we be surprised by this and accuse the universities of bias? The way I see it is Richmond is full of extremely intelligent people who presumably have intelligent children. They then have the money and resources to support them in all sorts of ways, such as buying books, reading to them, private schooling and/or tutors when needed, sport and other activities.

I really don't see how this is the fault of the universities.

Well, I have actually sat at an 'in hall dinner' with a group of young people and seen exactly that happen. With the cutlery. OK, it was a fairly formal dinner, to do with the reason we were there.

And I have meetings there and get invited to dinnner on High Table. I am used to it now, but the various idiosyncrasies are daunting. Not for me, I am confident and have cpdrience in the world.

The image plays a big part. It's all very well saying it's all fine once you get there, but everyone knows about the proportion of private school people there, and if your image of such groups en masse is informed by what you see on the bus and sports field, that is going to influence you.

Unless you have parents, like me, who say 'it will be fine, give it a try, let's go and have a look...'.

As for 'if you are put off by this it isn't the right place for you', well, what a self-fulfilling cycle of privilege and elitism and inaccessibility that engenders!!

Maybe not a consensus, but there is a theme here about gowns, eating in 'halls', rules about what you can and cannot do based on some archaic tradition that will be far more comfortable to applicants who come from private schools that ape all of this.

How about oxbridge joined the 21st century and dropped all this pretentious nonsense, especially on their marketing material? Do they really want the best applicants, or do they want more of the same - the facts seem to suggest the latter.

Yet some of that nonsense helps students fit in in some kinds of (higher) paid work actually so it would be a pity to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I am from the NE. I think the N/S divide is getting much worse but perhaps it goes in cycles. My twins recently chose Bristol over Durham (we live in London now) in part because of distance and I suppose that can apply the other way round too. My siblings went to Oxbridge from the NE ( I didn't try and no one from my school had ever been; in fact I did mention it to my head (very small private school so I am not claiming any lack of privilege here) who said as I was a year young through school I was too young to apply and I did not push it).

There are some very good posts on the thread and lots of topics of interest here. If blacks do not get as many As but Indians, Asians, Chinese etc do then that is reflected in the offers so the question is how can we get those grades higher.

On the N/S divide it can also be a grammar school divide. Where I am grammar schools were abolished in about 1970 as were direct grant schools. Yet down here in the SE thre seem to be so very many different and quite academic schools in the state sector and lots of posh comps. There are not many of those in Newcastle and Sunderland and Cumbria or Wales. So presently (although not in the past - my ancestors went to the North because there was money and jobs by the way - people move around for those things and always have) people tend to move if they can afford it for work and jobs. I am from the NE but my children from London as I moved to get work. Both my siblings moved from the NE for work to the SE (one in fact at one stage to the mentioned Richmond even for work),. One is now back further North but paying school fees there.

Like that lovely link above of the I am Oxford or whatever it is people holding signs there are people there from all kinds of backgrounds. It is also very patronising to suggest working class people are always put off by that stuff by the way. My mother adored at her teacher training college which okay was not university but it was 2 years studying and transformed her life in the 1940s could join a choir, sing in church - it was a big bit of her life. It didn't put her off. It brought her out. She seized the opportunity.

The working class used to want to grasp these chances - they would take themslves off to the library to read Shakespeare. My grandfather left school at 12. My great uncle was down a mine aged 14. These people fought and fought to get educational chances for their children from the NE and studying was not seen as bad and learning to speak "properly" was not awful or snobby or elitist - it was a route out of poverty and a chance to learn and see beautiful things like opera and books. Gowns cover a multitude of sins. I am not sure what the objection of them is. They are in a sense make everyone the same.

I work for a central London Russell group uni. Over 70% of undergrads come from state schools. If poor/bme etc don't apply in the first place how they be offered a place. End of. This issue lies purely with the schools and parents. And another fact - if they come from a lower income family they get funding. Fact.

This issue lies purely with the schools and parents

That's right, blame the people without the resources to improve the situation.

I can't speak for out of London but the central London unis actively work with the state schools to encourage applications. Resource for this is funded by the top slicing of fees and alumni and Corp support. The funding is there. The instit I work for put over 200 school children through (this doesn't Inc working with all year groups from year 6 in primary school through to a level).

I wonder whether partnerships / 'link tutors' might work?

So each admissions team in each college would take on responsibility for a certain number of schools from specific areas, chosen on the basis that some pupils are getting suitable A-level results but there are few Oxbridge applications. They would be the personal contact for any 6th form pupil, and any teacher, from that school wanting to apply, and would be required to provide e.g. PS feedback and interview practice as a 'mentor'.

Another form of partnership might be between private schools who send many pupils to Oxbridge and their local - or even more distant - state comprehensives. As a condition of their charitable status, they could be required to provide e.g. interview practice, PS coaching etc for pupils from other schools.

TalkinPeace - yes thanks for that. For each college it tells you how many white and black students there were for each year for the last 6 years. That means that the data is sufficiently fine graded that you can definitely identify individuals if you know the college as there are usually only one or two black students for a year in each college.

It's just that there are a couple of years where I have definitely admitted a student I would have perceived as black and the chart says that college has had no black students offered places. It might be that they would not have defined themselves as black or they've ticked 'other' or 'refuse to say' on a box somewhere. It just raises a question for me about how it is collected. It would be very much more helpful to have success rates and other racial groups recorded.

Yes the colleges have done that for a long time can'tkeepaway, though it does mean that some colleges get areas with high participation/low racial diversity.

That's silly. They should be fully targeted at areas with low participation but good results. Do they do interview practice / PS vetting for all students from their target schools?

It's no good having a 'generalised area for which you are responsible but have no time to do anything'. Much better to mentor, in detail, 50 students from 20 schools rather than contact, in general terms, 500 pupils from 200 schools.

"It is also very patronising to suggest working class people are always put off by that stuff by the way"

Is it patronising to listen to working class /BAMER people when they say they are put off?

There is a massive difference between the accessibility of a teacher training college and Christ Church Oxford, for example, in terms of social intake, weirdness and protocols.

There are an awful lot of people on this thread talking about what young people from (variously) disadvantaged backgrounds OUGHT to be feeling, thinking and perceiving about Oxbridge rather than listening to what they DO perceive, and feel.

It's interesting that the hall thing puts people off and I can see that being less intimidating if you have been to boarding school. State schools could address that in part by bringing back proper meals where everyone sits at a table and eats together with cutlery and crockery and conversation instead of grabbing a polystyrene pot of pasta/bag of chips/slice of pizza/sandwich and eating it with a plastic fork while they stand around/perch in whatever space they can find.

BUT - not all colleges have formal hall, not all wear gowns, not all are in ancient buildings, very few say grace in any language, let alone latin and where you have your tea really is a very tiny part of your day.

My DCs (current Oxbridge students) really wanted to study somewhere where it is "cool" to work hard and ok to have an early night, even at the weekend, because you actually want to be awake enough to work the next morning. They had not experienced this at school and they love it!

They actually love the fact that other people shop and cook for them - they didn't expect this AT ALL. Both can look after themselves perfectly well and applied to colleges where they could cater for themselves, but they love the fact they don't need to, it's easier and it's a really sociable thing to sit and eat with friends in college. One does need to wear a gown if they eat at a certain time - it's really not a big deal, it's just a sleeveless cardie thing that they put on over whatever they are already wearing. They coped with school uniform for 15 years and it seems a very small price to pay

DH had an A level student last year who Cambridge turned down who got 3As and an A (might have been 4 As but DH is out so I can't check). She got full marks in Further Maths. The reason they gave was she had gained a 2 in their own entry exam. They never accept anyone who does not get a 1. What a load of tosh!
She attended a comp in the north east, lives on one of the most deprived and notorious council estates in the country, no one in her family has ever gone to university and she had no support from home and prepared for the entry exam in about 6 weeks whereas the other candidates had private tutors and had been preparing for 6+ months. Cambridge would not give an inch, despite the Head ringing and speaking to them and telling them she is the most able student in the subject he has ever taught and explainng everything she has overcome and her amzing work ethic as well as her ability.
I would bet my bottom dollar there are students on that course from wealthy privileged backgrounds without her qualifications.

Actually I think it was Oxford.

State schools could address that in part by bringing back proper meals where everyone sits at a table and eats together with cutlery and crockery and conversation instead of grabbing a polystyrene pot of pasta/bag of chips/slice of pizza/sandwich and eating it with a plastic fork while they stand around/perch in whatever space they can find.

Yeah right,
with what money and in what space ?
1500 kids in a school
Dining hall seats 200 at a push
Lunch break is 35 minutes long

I seriously doubt it Lulu - Cambridge routinely make twice as many offers as there are places for maths and they turn away exceptional mathematicians every year who miss their offer because they do not have room for them.

That's true Ta1kin but it would go a long way to addressing the problem and not so many years ago it was the norm.

But Lulu did not say she was applying for maths,
Maybe at tealeals suggestion she was doing a comp friendly course like Geography

I think the 2 refers to the Cambridge STEP paper taken by those applying for Maths. It is arguably the toughest course to get in for.

I'm not aware of any other Oxbridge entrance exam where a 1 is possible though. And a 2 would not have been good enough to get into most of the universities that use that particular exam a couple of years ago (lots of people applied for maths for some reason that year I'm guessing).

notnow
it would go a long way to addressing the problem and not so many years ago it was the norm.
Sorry but that is an utter irrelevance.
5 meals a week, 32 weeks a year has nothing to do with how comfortable kids are using multiple sets of cutlery or eating a multi course meal.

If Oxbridge think that fish knives are what makes good students they are indeed stuck in the 19th century.

More politicians need to learn how to eat a burger with one hand without looking a dork after all

I agree with OP. A lot of professionals move to this area for jobs. These people will mainly be degree educated professionals. Their children will also therefore have a genetic advantage. Combine with a professional wage and you get a high end university candidate

I agree with OP. A lot of professionals move to this area for jobs. These people will mainly be degree educated professionals. Their children will also therefore have a genetic advantage. Combine with a professional wage and you get a high end university candidate

I wonder how many of the black 6th formers from the likes of Eton and Marlboro decide to apply to non UK universities now the costs are so similar. It'd be interesting to know if there has been a drop in applications/admissions relative to the proportion of the population.

If you're offered a place at a non-UK uni it may not depend on your A levels - so maybe you would miss your offer and just keep your UCAS insurance in case it is needed for some reason?

If you don’t grow up in the kind of environment that pushes oxbridge then objectively it can be easy to not choose it. I had all top marks at school. No idea if I’d have got in but I didn’t want to. I had no interest. Weird towns that looked stuck in the past to me.
I went to a good quality old university in a city I liked the look of.