Student loans - anyone changed their view recently?

[jeanne16]

Following the recent furore over student loans, has anyone changed their view about whether to try to fund their DCs university via a route other than a student loan?

Needmoreslep
But we left university in debt - the debt was hidden but the subsidy had to be paid back one day.

On the other hand, as per the letter in the Economist the other week,
QE was £453 bn of printed money never aiming to be repaid
rather dwarfs the NHS deficit

I do not plan on calling on the taxpayer for myself or my kids, but chose to leave London many years ago so am happier with my much lower earning power.

PS
we travel because we like to for our own sanity and professional reasons
we take the kids because we are humane

Have your kids never been abroad then - to allow them to leave Uni debt free ?

We replace our cars every seven years because they are work tools
Retirement - neither of us ever plan to, so irrelevant

I think it would be remiss of me to expect the taxpayer to subsidise members of my family.
I agree with this.

I have also posted elsewhere that visiting US students have told DS - UK student - he doesn't know how lucky he is with our current system.

User - do you think this may happen in the foreseeable future - "many working in university management anticipate Oxbridge privatising" Really ? it seems totally against the general ethos of UK universities ( other funding discussions aside) That would be a very big thing.

Tip now you are being silly. Yes we holidayed abroad and took the kids. If you had not noticed the UK holidays are usually more expensive.

We all have our own constraints and priorities. There is a MN assumption that the moral high ground is on some hill in Hampshire. The truth is that we all muddle through somehow and make choices that are right for us.

DH has a London based career. We have never bought a car (family handmedowns that we drive into the ground) and we will choose to work longer so our DC can have choices further down the line.

You do not like living in London, you need to travel for your sanity. This does not make your decision to have your DCs take out loans right.....or wrong.

Yes, this is being discussed at the highest levels in Oxbridge.

The UK government is making life very difficult for top UK universities - effectively strangling us and our capacity to retain our world rankings. (Think TEF, REF, increased strings attached to funding for research, Brexit and implications on attracting international students etc.) Meanwhile the actual amount of money coming in from the UK government/research councils/fees is going down, with top universities increasingly unable to compete with top international universities for staff.

This does not make your decision to have your DCs take out loans right.....or wrong.

Back in reality, most families simply cannot afford to pay the fees/maintenance by cutting back on holidays or cars or remortgaging.
Many/most families just can't raise 50-60k per child that easily.

Many of us on MN are in very fortunate positions where we can actually make the choice of taking a mortgage/extending working age/saving to pay fees/maintenance. But this is not the case for most.

needmoresleep
I'm confused
16:36 you said you were not having a holiday this summer
17:03 "Yes we holidayed abroad and took the kids"

you do not buy cars, but inherit them - and do not need them for work
(DH does over 20,000 unavoidable work miles a year, I do over 10,000)
Neither of us could do what we do if based in London

neither of us earn enough to be able to set aside enough to avoid student loans
and statistically we are in the top 20% in the UK

User I dont disagree, but have also come across lower income parents taking on extra shifts/jobs to help keep their DCs borrowing to a minimum. Or encouraging them to look closely at local options/apprenticeships. Some people are more debt adverse, often more to do with personality than the amount you have in the first place.

But then I am not convinced that wholesale expansion of the three year, away from home, University model was the right approach. And believe that there would be value in promoting local, vocational and life long employer linked learning or the type more common in Singapore, Germany and some parts of the US.

I am sure various London Universities must also be thinking in the same way. Hugely popular with overseas students but often avoided by good UK applicants. They will sink or swim on their international rankings, and without the asset base enjoyed by many Oxbridge colleges.

many working in university management anticipate Oxbridge privatising and competing directly against top US institutions.

Highly highly highly unlikely. They'd lose billions and already compete quite happily on the world stage.

User - & I realise this is a simple question without a simple answer - and , I shouldn't ask you this , but in theory all the best universities are available at the same fees . Living expenses , of course a different thing. Would the likes of Oxbridge / Warwick / Durham / UCL etc etc really become private universities (which I am guessing would make it a great deal more expensive and therefore out of reach for some - & I know the loan thing is a thing but this would take it to a different level ) I get that some universities are in more expensive places but it would widen the gap.

That knocks loans into a cocked hat IMHO.

Highly highly highly unlikely.

Go talk to the Oxbridge VCs. What was once considered unthinkable is being talked about and planned for.

Titchy - Not just Oxbridge - but I hope your general point is right. But I do not know enough about University funding or the thinking going on to know.

No need for confusion....Empty nest and both DC working so no call for a family holiday.

And having a car is genuinely optional in London. We would probably not have one if we did not have family caring obligations elsewhere.

But the point is that the way you approach borrowing is personal. There is no right or wrong. Being better off or having more earning opportunities simply gives more choice. Regardless I would be motivated to help DC keep debt to a minimum. But am happy to accept others think differently.

What was once considered unthinkable is being talked about and planned for.

Talked about maybe - we all talk lots Planned for seriously - nope.

In theory all the best universities are available at the same fees.

Not for much longer, in any case, as TEF will be used to separate fees into three categories.

Although, confusingly, TEF does not pick out the "best" universities in terms of research and teaching quality. It uses proxy measures to compare teaching at an institution with benchmarks set according to the incoming cohort. This resulted in LSE being awarded Bronze, with places like Bournemouth (I think) getting Gold. The bizarre thing is that the benchmarks are of course much higher for high tariff universities so low tariff universities got Gold on measures that were far weaker than top universities who got Bronze.

So in principle Bournemouth will be able to charge higher fees in a couple of years time than LSE.... which makes no sense at all.

Planned for seriously - nope.

You're not at Oxbridge, are you? I would happily be prepared to take bets offline, based on inside information.

Titchy about 5 years ago I went an alumni talk from the then LSE Director about the future.

As I recall only about 10% of their funding came from the Government, they were struggling to attract good British students, especially from northern state schools, but international demand was soaring. Their competitors were mainly overseas, and they lived and died by retaining a strong reputation.

There was nothing in what was said that would contradict what User is suggesting.

TEF - No link to fees till at least 2020 (election year...) probably more - thank you HoL. And both Ox and Cam were Gold.... despite their metrics

Not outing myself or my institution sorry.

The LSE does NOT struggle recruit Home students! It desperately needs its new Director though

Titchy, the concern was that many good northern students were put off by cost and opting for places like Warwick instead. And that many British applicants did not have enough maths to support study of the more technical subjects. Hence a new four year PPE degree and DS being surprised at how many of his UK peers had self studied further maths.

Cost is a big issue and may explain very high private school percentages at some London Universities.

The finances of the universities really puzzle me. On the one hand we hear about how they need to raise fees significantly to compete on the world stage, on the other hand we hear about the rocketing salaries of the top staff and the huge building projects they are embarking on.

So which one is it?

Yes fees need to rise - we've had no increase in income for five years, yet costs have risen - employers NI in particular. But the HE sector is in OK shape financially - we're not limited in numbers, we're nowhere near as reliant on HEFCE grants as we were. We are no less able to compete internationally as we were before. I'm not happy about the split off of research grants to UKRI or the new role of the OfS, but it's not doom and gloom at all. Even for London HEIs who have more EU students than elsewhere.

Don't believe Andrew Adonis' bitter spewings about VC salaries - how many organisations can you name with £200m pa turnover which are led by CEOs on under £150k?

NB I'm talking about England!

Anecdotally only , I suspect that people who live within striking distance of London and therefore have a fall back for 2nd and perhaps 3rd year for a London College would be more liable to give it a shot ( aside from overseas students who have decided costs are affordable) Yes , not the total living away thing , but a fall back if that doesn't happen.

For post finals - Needmore's post is interesting. Sharing a rented flat at those kind of numbers in some jobs is eminently doable. Of course it depends on job.

So in principle Bournemouth will be able to charge higher fees in a couple of years time than LSE.... which makes no sense at all.

And so - it ( private fees) surely won't work - someone who understands economics better than me , please bung up - or indeed understands market forces.

This is nothing against Bournemouth.
My niece is going to look at Bath and Brighton - overseas student. Does anyone have a thought about them ? Can tell subject of anyone knows about them.