3 student deaths at Bristol University

[bevelino]

I read today in the Bristol Post that 3 students have very sadly committed suicide in the first 3 weeks of term at Bristol University. My thoughts are with their families. I hope all students get the pastoral care they need.

[CharliePurple]

So sorry to hear about your daughter

[Slightlyperturbedowlagain]

namechanged I would definitely ask to speak to the course lead and ask if she can suspend studies for a while to just give some space and time. Or if it's not too late to withdraw without paying fees for this year (I'm not sure when the cut off point is, I have beginning of Dec in my head for some reason, so worth checking quickly) Even if they can't directly discuss your DD they will be able to give some generic information; I would recommend contacting the disabilities support on the same basis. It's a very different set of circumstances from phoning to discuss a student's grades after all.

[namechangedfordaughter]

Thanks for all your help. She is too unwell to go back, she has apparently been unhappy since starting and has low self esteem.
I think that we can pay for this term and she can start again next year in halls with more support.

I am still so shocked, I thought that we had a very open, warm relationship. Having scanned the net for advice (I found PAPYRUS very good), it's a complicated mix of things and circumstances.
I am going to tread carefully for now as I am not convinced that she won't try again.

[Lovelyskin]

namechanged I'm sorry you have had this awful shock, you sound like you are handling it well and I think you are right about taking a step back now with your dd and worrying about next year's uni further down the line.

I do feel more of my students have mental health problems than ever before, and have personally supported many through doing either ug or postgrad quals with difficulties, time out, retaking and so on. I do think the system at our uni is quite good ONCE the person is in the system, has gone to their tutor, been picked up by counselling/the senior staff that then devise a plan for them to help them get back on track which includes contacting parents if permission is given. The ones I worry about are the ones who don't show any sign of trouble and then it all goes wrong. I once lost a student who failed to show for a few weeks, he turned up in a psychiatric unit although he was older so parental contact wasn't appropriate.

I do feel though that I'm not really suited to pastoral care beyond being a sympathetic ear and signposting people to the more intensive services, and luckily that's all we do now, we do not have to 'contain' personal or mental health issues but send them all to the academic who is responsible for taking these cases on with support from the institution. Before that, being responsible as a personal tutor for students with MH difficulties, self-harming, in MH crises was really worrying and I'm just glad now that the University has recognized we are just not in any way qualified for this and it needs to go to those that are.

I feel so sad the pressure some young people put themselves under, having said that, there was a spate of suicides at my uni at finals time 25 years ago, I know less people went then but it was quite a well-known thing even then and there were always people who simply didn't cope at that point, being perfectionist and putting themselves under so much pressure. The system now encourages this more and that's why I think numbers with MH and just general 'difficulty coping with life' issues seems to have risen.

[GetAHaircutCarl]

name be very kind to yourself please.

You will need to be extremely strong now and that means you need a lot of self care. I know it seems counter intuitive to think of yourself when this has happened but it is imperative IME.

[Booboostwo]

Namechanged i am so sorry

A few years back I had a personal tutee with a physical disability which was causing her emotional difficulties. She had been on ADs but decided to come off without medical support.

Her GP could do nothing for her, the waiting list for mental health services was three months long even though she had been flagged as needing urgent care.

Her parents had retired to a one bedroom house and told her there was no space for her even during holidays.

The Uni counselling services felt her case was too complex and beyond their expertise.

The disability officer assigned to her was not responding to emails or telephone calls by either her or me for over two weeks. She had also failed to complete standard assessment forms which meant the minor adjustments had not been communicated to the student's hall of residence causing huge and utterly avoidable problems.

She used to call me at home in the evenings in tears and I and trouble not crying myself along with her.

This was a while ago and I suspect things may be even worse now.

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

Things I think have changed since I went to Uni

Drugs. We smoked a bit of weed now and then at a party. On my DD's first night at Uni, everyone brought out the stuff they'd brought along from home: cocaine, MDMA, ket. My DD likes a good time but she was pretty shocked. And these kids were all butter wouldn't melt middle class kids with lovely straight parents. My kids have seen infinitely more drugs at their naice Uni's than they ever saw clubbing and partying in our northern working class town.

Food. Every girl in DD's flat was on some vegan/clean eating trip. They were all incredibly slim. DD lost about a stone, went down to size 6. One of her flat mates dropped out with anorexia.

Friends. When 15% of kids went to uni, I was the only person from my school at my uni. All my friend were too. We were all in it together. There is a big trend now of big groups of friends going to the same place, not making much effort with outsiders, socialising and renting houses together. If you are on your own at uni, it can be really hard, if not impossible braking in when everyone else seems to be in strong friendship groups already.

[Windanddrizzle]

Interesting article in today's Guardian.

www.theguardian.com/education/2016/nov/26/bristol-student-deaths-highlight-campus-crisis-in-mental-health

[EnormousTiger]

user, it would be dead easy legally if the default on joining university was students gave a consent to contact parents for serious issues and students could opt in or out. That would be a few minutes on a form so not time consuming nor legally difficult.

If you contact parents without the consent then there is a breach of the DPA although there are not many prosecutions (I have given talks at universities on DPA so I know the issues they face) and I would much rather risk a student complaining about DPA breach than having a dead student and unhappy parents on my hands to be honest although of course some parents are utterly toxic and the teenager is very lucky to be away from them and should not have contact in a month of Sundays. It is certainly not an easy issue in all cases which is why obtaining the initial consent on entry to university would be best so those students with that situation just say no and the 95% who don't and probably would want a parent to know if they were having major problems can consent.

I was 17 at university ( I was a year young in school) for a term by the way as indeed is the case in Scotland.
name, I hope things are okay. We are all thinking of you.

[AddictedtoLove]

although of course some parents are utterly toxic and the teenager is very lucky to be away from them and should not have contact in a month of Sundays

Problem is, how can a university tutor know this, or make a decision about this? And how do we legally determine "serious"? And if a student made a complaint, I would hate to think what disciplinary procedures an academic would face. We are not trained for this, we are not given the space in our workloads for detailed pastoral care, we are not in loco parentis. As harsh as all that sounds. If a parent considers their child is going to struggle, then they should be dealing with that before their child goes to university, frankly.

I have encountered students who are very lucky to be away from abusive parents, but they know I am a safe person they can talk to. They know I cannot tell their parents anything without the student's permission. And for the sake of some students I have helped, I'm jolly glad that is the case.

And before people jump on me, most students are well-adjusted wonderful young adults, with "normal" (whatever that is) relationships with families, learning & growing & gaining independence. But of my 30 Personal tutees each year, I will have 1 or 2 with quite severe problems, emerging from problematic or complex & difficult family dynamics. Those are the ones where I'm glad I'm not answerable directly to parents.

[catslife]

I have read the Guardian article and found it helpful.
I have also read the rest of the thread. I don't think that others are trying to "blame" anyone for what has happened BTW, but simply trying to come to terms with some of the possible reasons why freshers find themselves in this situation.
I understand that individual medical records are confidential and that when a young person reaches the age of 16 (not 18) that confidentiality also applies to parents. So there are lots of considerations about contacting parents.
So sorry to hear about your daughter namechanged hope she recovers soon and that your are able to find the support you all need through this difficult situation.

[DollyPlastic]

namechanged you sound like a great mum, and I'm certain your DD will be glad she was found in time once she recovers fully. Lots of love to you both

[bojorojo]

Tulips. There are studies undertaken by universities in the USA which conclude that parents who "helicopter" can make their children risk averse, not resilient and produce a false environment because the helicoptering produces the perfect environment for the child where the child does not learn to cope with failure. Everything is taken care of. These are extremes of course but coupled with a perfectionist, it is a dangerous cocktail. The environment created at home cannot continue at university, hence the problems. I am not suggesting that anyone has done this on this thread.

However, it sometimes worries me on MN that parents and children analyse course content at university forensically, scrutinise every single piece of data available, ask questions about contact time (perhaps not understanding that self-directed study is an important element of university life), worry about job prospects, are really concerned that their child must have an en suite bathroom and generally have high levels of anxiety about their child leaving home and being able to cope. The stats are that the vast majority do cope and everyone gets on really well. It cannot be helpful though if the student rocks up on this stellar course and university that has been hand picked but finds it is not what they thought it would be. If they do not have resilience, coping mechanisms and most of all friends, it is a problem. Can they talk to anyone and admit they are not coping? Is it not losing face? Can a perfectionist learn to ccept they may not be the best and, actually, it does not matter? It is very hard for some to adjust and the smaller the adjustment they have to make, the better.

[gillybeanz]

I don't think it's good to get into the blame game and certainly wouldn't blame parents. However, I do think vital messages have to get through long before a child reaches 18.
I do think that 18 is old enough to be treated like an adult, but think vital steps are missed on the way.
We need to make our children stand on their own two feet and prepare them for life away from home.
We need to stop being so invested in what choices they make and stop planning their lives.
They don't know their own minds, where they are going or what they want to do because we do all this for them when they are teens.
They have to believe they are in charge of their own life, responsible for their own choices and mistakes.

[sendsummer]

This is not relevant to episodes of severe mental illness but I would like students to remember to focus on enjoying the challenge of improving their independent thinking and indulging their curiosity when studying a degree subject rather than simply on what they need to know to achieve the marks for exam or essay hurdle. Just doing the latter makes the process of a university degree fairly joyless even if they are able to do well in the exams. If students are not able to be as enthusiastic about the course as they hoped for or find the academic demands a struggle then universities provide lots of other opportunities and social mixing which actually may be more important for them and their future. Just as in the world of work it is about creating balance as pps like bojorojo said. Unlike the impressions given by social media friendships often take time to grow.
I also think that students who start off with low self esteem or unrealistic expectations or not ready to make independent choices (for whatever reason) will be particularly fragile in the first year or so.

[user7214743615]

it would be dead easy legally if the default on joining university was students gave a consent to contact parents for serious issues and students could opt in or out. That would be a few minutes on a form so not time consuming nor legally difficult.

No, I'm sorry, it would NOT be easy, as it is always highly subject what is a "serious" issue and what the student is agreeing to.

For example, if I smell cannabis on a student, this is not something the student should expect to be reported to parents - however for some parents/cultures even occasional cannabis use would be a very serious issue. On the other hand, if I often smell cannabis/see signs of other drugs on a student, the student frequently seems spaced out and is not showing up to classes, then the issue may well be something parents should know about. But that student might still not agree and might complain about the use of the catch all waiver, claiming regular cannabis use is not in itself a serious issue.

As other academics said above, a catch all waiver would put us in an impossible situations and could only be used with very detailed legal guidelines which would still probably exclude students at risk.

[EnormousTiger]

That's true, user so I suppose all we can do is encourage children whose parents might help them, at the time of the problem given consent that their parents can come and take them home.

I agree some parents would not want children to have sex before marriage or drink.

I still think we could draw up a fairly basic list most parents woudl agree on such as Notify my parents if I am absent from university for 4 weeks, am hospitalised..."... actualyl it's not an easy list. I hope people would just be pragmatic and also friends look out for each other which always impresses me about teenagers including the 5 I have had - their care of their friends. Hopefully the friends would notify the parents if needed.

I certainly don't think it should be the duty of academics by the way. I was thinking more of admin people (if someone is not turning up or has disappeared entirely ) and for those in halls the people at the halls.

bojo, thankfully we are not all like that. I have no idea what modules my children have done or will do except the second daughter at law school did chat to me and her sister (we are lawyers) about her post grad modules when she was choosing them so I do know about those ones.

Learning to fail and cope with that including at school and home helps. Get the red marks on work and poor quality essay comment. I certainly try to make them realise none of this matters as much as some teenagers think at the end of the day - look around us - plenty of people are happy with all kinds of lives. That Indian girl who killed herself because she'd only got into Edinburgh not Durham is so so sad. Edinburgh is a really good university. It won't matter at all which she went to. It's one reason I show my teenagers these kinds of stories in the newspapers so we can have a little chat about it - in fact I said the otehr day to one isn't it a shame that at the age and stage when your hormonese are utterly raging and you are changing so much that is the exact same time you do these important exams and pick careers when we have about 90 years of a life and yet we make that really difficult part just at that stage. If people could just wait a bit if they feel fed up usually by next day or in a few weeks they are better. However this is so superficial. My family are psychiatrists and they woudl be the first to say often there are chemical imbalances in the brain and people need serious help. In fact my brother says the worst bit is that people think you either commit suicide or you fail and come round. In fact a huge number come round and are disabled for life - mentally or physically if they jumped off something which can have dreadful consequences.

[GetAHaircutCarl]

The fortunate truth is that students in the UK are a low risk group for suicide.

So while it is a terrible tragedy for those involved, we need to remember that the majority of students are fine. Indeed they are enjoying the experience.

[alreadytaken]

namechanged I wish you and your daughter well for the future.

My child has had a couple of friends needing support from counselling services at university, both graduated with their peer group after being encouraged to seek help early. Before my child went to university they were told that it would probably be a great time for them but that even those who greatly enjoy it can have spells of feeling lonely, struggling with the workload or suffer relationship issues. I made sure they knew what counselling services were available and how to access them and told them I'd expect them to encourage their friends to see counsellors if

I believe a lot of the problem stems from increased competiveness and more emphasis on material things. Teach your children that goods do not matter, they matter and that they can have a useful and productive life whether they graduate or not.

[woman12345]

I am so sorry for the families and loved ones.
Condolences.

[VanillaSugarAndChristmasSpice]

What a dreadfully sad thread. I want to visit my First Year DD last weekend and she kept selling up. She's been a boarding school girl and for the first time EVER she said she missed us.

I genuinely think Fear of Failure is part of the problem. And social media with its "I'm having a wonderful time and you aren't" messages are toxic to a young person who is lonely and perhaps struggling a bit.

[VanillaSugarAndChristmasSpice]

went and welling obvs.

[AddictedtoLove]

The fortunate truth is that students in the UK are a low risk group for suicide

Yes indeed - thanks for reminding us, GetaHaircut The Guardian article inked to above actually states that : "Students have a lower suicide rate than the general population"

As I've already said, the kneejerk reactions in this thread that the reasons were "rubbish pastoral care" etc, don't really account for the complexity of these sorts of situations. As a tutor, I deal each year with troubled undergrads (and PhD students for that matter). We have some clear guidelines, but often these are met with resistance, or it takes a lot of careful persistent staff action to help students to see that they need to take some sort of action for their MH - of course, the inability to take action to look after themselves is a symptom of their ill-health in the first place, so it's tricky.

But I still remember from about 8 years ago, a student who was very troubled, and as we talked over several months in their first year (conversations that started because there were disciplinary issues around attendance & disrupting group work), they disclosed little bits of their life. It took time & persistence, but we were able to persuade the student to take a year of absence, to do something different, earn money & get away from some difficult family dynamics (financial dependence & its consequences was part of the problem). They were very resistant at first, but were just not participating & were set to fail. And their behaviour was jeopardising other students' work . By intercalating, they cleaned the slate, and when they graduated, my colleagues & I received a heartfelt card thanking us for persisting. They realised after some time away just how much they needed a break. And the student was able to find a way to deal with the family dynamics as well. A success story. But frankly - not one we could have managed if the parents had been involved - the student needed to make independent decisions.

[AddictedtoLove]

they were told that it would probably be a great time for them but that even those who greatly enjoy it can have spells of feeling lonely, struggling with the workload or suffer relationship issues

But isn't that definition of being in your late teens/early twenties? Don't psychologists say we all go through a sort-of second adolescence in our early 20s?

[Ta1kinpeece]

What DD is finding the hardest is the fact that people who plan to drop out are making life hell for those who want to work
the distance does not seem to be an issue and we have never been a family who are in constant contact
but I will be very glad to see her in two weeks when she comes home