3 student deaths at Bristol University

[bevelino]

I read today in the Bristol Post that 3 students have very sadly committed suicide in the first 3 weeks of term at Bristol University. My thoughts are with their families. I hope all students get the pastoral care they need.

I suspect that sixth form teachers will have observed similar. Y13 was really difficult, not because of A levels but the levels of stress and anxiety floating around. And looking across DCs NCT peer group, who ended up in a mix of schools, A&D is surprisingly common.

Things seem to be different.

• Education is different. A levels used to involve thinking and argument,. now it is about knowing mark schemes and the words or phrases that are needed.

• AS levels and taking GCSEs early meant there were four consecutive years or more of exams.

• Demand for places at "top" universities has grown considerably. Competition, especially for quasi-vocational subjects, is intense.

• Parental expectations have grown. Every few weeks there is a MN thread involving a parent planning their baby's route through "top" schools and on to Oxbridge/Ivy. Tutoring/coaching/pestering schools is almost routine, at least in affluent parts of London. Observation suggests linking parental approval to academic success can be seriously damaging. A lots of the strains became visible in Yr 13.

• Recruitment is much more tick box. DH's employer will regularly get 100s of applications for a job. The filters are unforgiving. 2.1s are essential. Interviews are structured and scored. You cannot recruit someone simply because they seemed to have something about them. Students know this.

• students, especially in STEM subjects, seem to have to work astonishingly hard. I don't know whether it is having to catch up on stuff no longer taught in schools, or a tradition of throwing stuff at kids to see how they handle it. However these are kids who hitherto had to get A* in practically everything in order to get on their competitive course, and so are unused to the idea that 70% is good enough. We hear of kids regularly staying in the library till 2.30 am in their first term, and of bright kids having breakdowns and needing to drop out. And at the same time they are probably being told that they should be having the time of their lives.

• a regular observation from kids from London is that others can appear incredibly young. Some of their peers have never been on a train before, whereas they have been used to fighting their way through the rush hour tube for years. Sharing a bathroom can be a challenge, sharing a room well nigh on impossible. The clubbing and drinking culture can also be a shock. In our experience London kids have been more likely to go to each other's houses, where certainly there is drinking, but usually a level of parental supervision, and indeed they sometimes cook for each other. From what I have heard, up to 50% of DDs friends did not enjoy freshers week at all, and ended up feeling quite isolated.

I am so glad DD opted to take a gap year. A year out from academia means she will start with a bit more context, and hopefully a sense of entering a new and different phase of her life, rather than treating University as an extension of school.

Demand for places at "top" universities has grown considerably. Competition, especially for quasi-vocational subjects, is intense.

This is true for your DC's choices (Economics at top universities, Medicine) but it is really not true for the majority of "Russell Group" courses. These are actually less selective than they used to be 20-30 years ago because there are no longer quotas on places. This is however not the perception amongst parents at top competitive schools like your DC attended. The problem is more in perception, than reality.

students, especially in STEM subjects, seem to have to work astonishingly hard.

Again, in reality, the STEM workload is far lighter than it used to be. The course content is down by 20-50% relative to when I was an undergraduate. The issue has to be the lack of preparation from school - too much spoonfeeding, not enough challenge, not enough independent working.

Maybe. However one by-product of the greater parental involvement in education seems to be a steer towards quasi-vocational subjects.

DC chose their subjects, but they know plenty of kids who are guided by their parents. You only need to look at the behaviour of some parents at open days. And these parents choose subjects like economics, engineering and medicine. It can be an issue at private schools, but equally DD met state school pupils applying for medicine who were clear that their dad's made the decisions, indeed seemed surprised that it would be any other way. So a double whammy. Lots of pressure on the kids, and lots of competition for courses. And inevitably children aiming high.

On the spoonfeeding point, the adjustment can be greater for those coming from state schools. A level humanities don't seem to require the level of essay writing skills that they once might have done, and the lack of challenge and experience of independent working can be greater there than in some independents. (But I suspect some of the kids who are "struggling" are aiming to replicate the 93+% UMS they needed to bag their University place. )

But to add the anxiety and depression we observed in Yr 13 was with kids at a wide variety of schools.

But the whole London school system has gone crazy, with parents perceiving that everything from babyhood must be planned, competing unnecessarily all the way along.

The reality is that if you can manage 3 As at A level you will have a wide choice of university courses that will feed into great careers. Of course Medicine is over-subscribed, as it has always been. Subjects like Law are also over-subscribed and a degree in Law from a middle or low tier university is not likely to get you far. But Engineering is most definitely not over-subscribed outside the very top handful of universities. (We as a country are under-producing engineers so engineers are very much in demand from all good university courses.) Economics is not that over-subscribed outside the top handful of courses either, and the career prospects of an Economics graduate from an RG university outside the top few are fine.

For most subject you don't need to go to a top 5 university course to have a great career, but a large number of students (particularly from London) seem to think that their lives will be over if they don't get into the very top courses in their subjects. Then they think that their careers will be over if they don't land "top" internships, "top" jobs on graduation etc.

This culture of (unnecessary) competitiveness and pressure amongst high achieving students is part of the mental health problems epidemic.

the adjustment can be greater for those coming from state schools

hmmmm, not sure my experience of actually teaching them (in the humanities) bears this out. Often the reverse, as what you buy when you buy your children's education is small class sizes and individual attention. And individual guidance about how to "get" the A* I find that students who've been pushed in that way, have sometimes been pushed beyond their independent capabilities (for their age & maturity, at any rate) and can't quite cope without that nannying.

On the other hand students from selective schools (private and state) are often better at handling a high workload, as they typically took more subjects in the sixth form and combined academic work with extra-curriculars. I wouldn't make too many generalisations by sector as there's such a range of private and state schools.

Parents need take a long hard look at themselves? But that's just not going to happen, is it? Meanwhile, we live in these times, these things are happening. They should be dealt with but they won't be. Because, even though university fees seem astronomical to those paying, everything is being stretched and cut. I don't see anything getting better. We just have to keep our fingers crossed it's not our children, or anyone we know.

As I said upthread, my DD started at Bristol in Sept, she is a heavyweight course and I worry. But n support of the Uni, because it is too easy to blame them, my DD had a minor prob, the dean of her school has an easy access policy and she got in see her within a week.
Dont no whT was said, none of my business, but we have sent my DD off to uni knowing it will be hard, that she wont even know in which ways and that if she is starting to struggle there is help available, and that it is up to her to seek it out.
The uni at britol has all manner of publicity around mental health support, her dept seems strong on pastoral care, and as parents we are keepng a weather eye out from afar.
The uni, i am sure is doing its best, why wouldnt they, an imagine how the lectures and support team of those poor kids feel just now!

People who are unhappy, will be unhappy for different reasons. My list was made up of different reasons for why some students seem unhappy. There will be more. And some, as I suggested are contradictory. So students from London are often quite independent and street smart, compared with rural peers, but may face a different culture shock when coming face to face with the freshers week alcohol binge.

If students are not ready for University, and don't have the independence, self-motivation, study techniques, Universities are limited in what they can do. And really difficult if a student is already been struggling with anxiety and depression during school years.

Our observation is that a fair proportion of DCs peers have found the first term difficult, but it can be hard to predict who. The only guess I can make is that having a bit of academic headroom (both ability but also interest in the course, motivation and study skills) seems to help. The ones really thriving at Oxbridge seem to be both super bright and with a range of other interests. Ditto a couple of DCs friends, who opted out of Oxbridge/London where they would have been average at best, are doing very well on courses they are interested in, and where they are able to shine.

There is a huge pressure to make friends and enjoy yourself , with this comes the stigma of loneliness . One major change is the rise of social media-- some students have made "best friends" before arriving - others are posting what a great time they are having with their new friends. This can cause an immense sense of isolation and failure in other students who like to take their time making friendships and have left the security of solid groups at home.
Feeling homesick is normal but social media can make students lose perspective.
I'm not sure what the answer to this is ,other than to drill into these students before they go - everyone can feel lonely at times ,you will develop new friendships over time ,it doesn't have to happen straight away. There is always a friend for everyone , some just need a bit more time to find each other.
University can be challanging and life is full of peaks and troughs.

FOMO is definitely an issue for students.

They're told that university, especially Freshers should be party central. And they see pictures of their mates on social media with new friends, having a ball. They also see pics of their hall-mates etc having a great time at stuff they weren't invited to.

It all adds up to Why Aren't I Doing That?

Add this to tiredness (even the non party folk will probably find hall life noisy to begin with and not conducive to sleep), home sickness, freshers flu etc and some students can feel very fragile at times in their first term.

Good point about loneliness user.
Feeling homesick and lonely is probably something new to students from all backgrounds unless they went to boarding school. I recall DH telling both DC how lonely he was when he went to uni in the 1970s.
A lot is also down to luck. DS has been very lucky in his accommodation. He has fallen in with a mixed bunch who quickly became real friends. He tells me that he is the exception among his old friends from home and that all of them have struggled with homesickness and loneliness to some degree, even the more outgoing ones.

My dd is a 2nd year student. We was talking about students with mental health issues a few months back. She was in a seminar group with 7 in the group and they were to do a group presentation. One of the students has mental health issues anxiety, panic attacks and depression.

They all knew this and did as much as they can to help and accommodate the hardship and condition the person was enduring. To begin with the work was divided up so the student with MH did the least work and would only do the concluding and summarising parts of the presentation so the student wasn't too stressed out with explaining the bulk of the research and analysis. The student in question was happy with the arrangement.

However, they also agreed that they would meet 3 times a week. It soon became very frustrating come 3rd week's into the work. After 9 group meetings the student with the MH only turned up to one meeting, the 1st one. Which caused a lot of panic and stress amongst the group, emails and what's app were ignored. The group was often left in limbo and let down by no shows. Patience went straight out of the window. Group ended up with a Plan B the day before the presentation and do the students part if they didn't show up, they deduced this might happen as the person suffers from panic attacks.

The presentation marks contribute to the overall mark to final years although very little in the grand scheme of things but for those in the group they won't necessarily see it that way and want to achieve the best they can.

From what I see, obviously very simplistic as MH is very complicated. But I honestly don't think those diagnosed with MH should be going to university, maybe take a gap year until they are better. It does them no good to be in a environment that can put them under more mental strain and stress. They don't have the family support or friends network close by. Compounded with stresses of workload and deadlines, no wonder they can end up with a mental breakdown. There's situations such the one I have mentioned, group work task, is it ideal for the MH sufferer to be working in them or the rest of the group to have to work round situations where someone with MH will present very unstable work ethics through no fault of their own. But it only causes animosity towards that person even if they try not to show it or confront them with their feelings in fear of MH sufferer getting worse from say giving work deadlines or being too critical of work collated. It must be like walking on egg shells. I don't think I would want dd to be studying far away if she was suffering from severe MH issues.

I think to use the tragic suicides as an opportunity to start political point scoring by suggesting that the deaths were in some way linked to high tuition fees is a really, really shit thing to do.

I am at university for the second time. The first was in the 80s when I had a whale of a time - heady carefree days and time to grow intellectually and emotionally, experience, experiment, dream, have fun . Now I look at my fellow students (they are all around 19 yrs old) and they seem so different to how I was in my first student days. They are serious, more hardworking than I was the first time round and above all concerned about their financial debts and how they will repay it. Not carefree days at all. What have we done to this generation?

Are suicides commoner among students than non-students?

Also shitty to start blaming parents for "helicopter" behaviour. These are real children who have died.

I know one of the dads, and no one could be more balanced, grounded, caring, and ready to encourage a child to open up their wings and fly.

Think of the parents on mumsnet who have lost children to suicide, and stop implying that suicides are caused by controlling parents.

There has been an increase in student suicides albert but I am not sure how that relates to deaths amongst non-students

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36378573

But Wind has there been an increase in suicides in that age group in general?

We know young people are suffering from depression, anxiety and low self esteem more than ever before. I am not sure whether that is more or less true of the university student demographic, compared to non-students of the same age, but really we should know before we start speculating on why students might be feeling suicidal.

Clara, I thought the conversation was about the different pressures on young people.

Some young people are under parental pressure, others feel peer pressure, yet others put themselves under pressure. This pressure may be academic or social. And there will be a whole host of other reasons which help generate depression and anxiety in young people, whether at University or not.

It is not unreasonable to consider possible triggers and what can be done.

They are serious, more hardworking than I was the first time round and above all concerned about their financial debts and how they will repay it.

Very few of my students seem concerned about debts. I also wouldn't say that there are more serious or hardworking than students were when I was an undergraduate. I get surprised when students who are taking out loans to be there don't attend classes, hand in assignments or study well for exams.

BTW I think it is inevitable on a discussion thread that people will discuss underlying reasons for mental health issues. That doesn't mean that posters don't have immense sympathy for the families involved.

stats by age including trend lines here.

The samaritans saved my life when I was in my first year of university. That was a long time ago.

I do think the increased costs may lead to added pressure, making students feel trapped because of the huge amount of money they have spent. I also think that year after year of exams makes them more vulnerable previously. I also think that for high fliers who are used to getting close to full marks - to then struggle at university must be very difficult.

I expect its a combination of many factors - yes the root causes must be tackled, but also they need access to help here and now if they are in difficulty.

Of course increased costs, debts and lack of money to buy food can cause mh problems. I'm speaking from experience. A young person in my family left uni in the first year doing a course he fought hard to get on because he just couldn't make his money stretch, wasn't eating well, worried about his loans. His middle income earning parents struggled with helping him having 3 other teens still at home. He became quite depressed and left uni. And if cpurse no one expects tutors to offer counselling ffs. But they can at least be compassionate and empathetic and unis are charging enough to be able to fund pastoral care adequately.

I think modern parenting amongst other things, has a lot to do with increase in MH and suicides in the young lot. Parents are quick to pick up the pieces and not let their kids fail or let them fathom out how to come back from from a failed task or exam, often parent will map out some grand plan so they don't get to that point. Which seems the right thing to do. But is it? Kids end up fearing failure, put pressure on themselves to succeed to avoid parents disappointment because of the huge investment placed into them wether mentally or financially. The young are now quick to be self critical however great or small the issue is and blow it up to great proportions to either feeling a complete failure and feel worthless. Don't take much, could be their looks, how many likes they get, not having the latest gadgets. The young are alot more sensitive emotionally then previous generation. In some ways they doing exactly what parents have been doing to them. So no wonder they feel alot more anxious.