3 student deaths at Bristol University

[bevelino]

I read today in the Bristol Post that 3 students have very sadly committed suicide in the first 3 weeks of term at Bristol University. My thoughts are with their families. I hope all students get the pastoral care they need.

[user7214743615]

And if cpurse no one expects tutors to offer counselling ffs. But they can at least be compassionate and empathetic and unis are charging enough to be able to fund pastoral care adequately.

Actually I have had to deal with calls from students in the middle of night, so not just expected to offer counselling but to deal with emergency mental health issues too.

And we are not receiving more money than we were before 2012. We do spend a lot of money on pastoral care, taking away money from education.

[Slightlyperturbedowlagain]

I get surprised when students who are taking out loans to be there don't attend classes, hand in assignments or study well for exams
Me too, and I voice my thoughts on this regularly to my students in a friendly way ('I want you to do well, you are paying a lot of money for this, please attend the sessions and get the most you can from it') Early adult-hood is often a time for pushing boundaries and struggling to prioritise though, just as the early teens can be.
One aspect I have noticed is the increased amount of pressure to do well that students perceive from their parents since the higher fees came in. I'm sure parents would be just as anxious about their general well-being, and I certainly am, but it's not what students are actually perceiving, so as parents (with my other hat on) we need to emphasise that maybe.
I also think it's important when things aren't going so well to point out that demonstrating energy, commitment and enthusiasm are probably more important for the future than getting exceptionally high grades, and while it's best to complete a course of study, if it doesn't work out then there are other options out there and life can still be happy and fulfilled.
I love working with young adults, seeing them develop confidence and grow over 3-4 years is awesome, and it's heartbreaking to hear about students feeling their best option is to end their life.

[TiaTheTulipFairy]

Is there more that schools could be doing to prepare pupils for university?
Things like study skills, basic life skills - budgeting, cooking, washing and so on?

[harvestmoon32]

Tia - parents should teach their children to cook, budget, wash etc

Schools have kids for 6-7 hours a day. Let's leave them to teach the academic stuff.

[Cuddlecouch]

Finances definitely contribute to mh issues imo. I have seen students pushed to the brink trying to juggle jobs with studying. As a lecturer I am hardly ever approached by students for counselling. I can't believe there are lecturers in this thread taking calls in the night! Are you giving personal numbers out? I find students who are struggling tend to internalise and can be difficult to reach as they do tend to miss lectures and tutorials. Our uni has cut right back on pastoral services, which is such a shame. It's shooting itself in the foot because lack of support will ultimately deter students from choosing our uni and now more than ever we need to keep numbers up.

Of course we lecturers have our own troubles. In my department alone there are 3 members of staff off sick with stress. We are sadly not in a position to adequately support vulnerable fragile or struggling students. It's not fair to blame c parents wholly.

[user7214743615]

I did not give my personal number out but the student in question found it via 192. The student was calling in very extreme circumstances. I am far from alone at my university in having had to deal with such cases.

[user7214743615]

As a lecturer I am hardly ever approached by students for counselling.

But how many of your tutees or students in your classes raise mental health issues? How many special considerations cases involve mental health issues in your department? I would bet that the answer to both questions is quite a few.

[AddictedtoLove]

Also shitty to start blaming parents for "helicopter" behaviour. These are real children who have died

I made it clear I was not talking about the specific three students at Bristol (who are young adults BTW, not children) - and according to the Guardian reportage, at least one of them had had MH problems throughout their teenage years - so the trigger was clearly not just being at university.

That is what is problematic about a lot of the speculation on this thread about those young adults: they were at a particular university, therefore that was the cause. Contiguity is not causation ...

There are many triggers, and the family dynamic is as likely a trigger as loneliness in Freshers' Week.

And of course the families are distraught, but the individual tutors for these students will also be deeply shocked & wondering what they could have done to stop this happening. Some posters on this thread are saying things like 'The university must do more' - well, who is the university? It's a knee jerk reaction, and - as those of us who teach young people daily at universities know - very far from the day to day reality of life in a university.

[AddictedtoLove]

But they can at least be compassionate and empathetic and unis are charging enough to be able to fund pastoral care adequately

I'm not sure how many times it needs to be said: universities are not getting more money with the tuition fee.

We are actually getting per head, rather less than before the 'full fees' regime set fees at around £9k. It's just that that money comes from the student, rather than general taxation. The student tuition fee replaces the government funding we received previously. Pretty much all government funding for undergraduate teaching has been cut.

We are funding pastoral care. Universities are expanding counselling services, and academic staff are funding it by their time.

What other things at a university would you cut, in order to be able to offer a full mental health service? Shall we stop buying books or equipping labs?

[Decorhate]

It would be interesting to find out if the rates of MH problems are higher in countries like the UK and USA where students very often go to unis very far from home, compared with European countries where it is more common to live at home or at least be able to come home at weekends.

[EnormousTiger]

I sent details of this to my teenagers and also of the girl who also killed herself who was in the papers this week simply because she didn't get the grades for Durhma but got them for Edinburgh. What a waste of a life! As I said to my boys it will not make much difference to her at all that she mgiht have gone to Edinburgh rather than Durham in terms of jobs and all sorts. They must never think it is as important as all that - it isn't.

I thank God every night for my utterly laid back children frustrating though they can be at times.

[quietlycrazy]

I don't think there's much to gain from playing the blame game. Everyone is different and none of us can know what was going on with these poor Bristol students. Also, sometimes one suicide inspires another, so there could have been an element of that.

But the suggestion that students with MH issues avoid going to university is a little extreme, Often academically gifted students also have MH issues. It would be a shame, and a potential loss to academia and society, if they were discouraged from post-secondary education! Other times, MH problems don't manifest themselves until university.

Also, you can't assume they weren't getting help or taking antidepressants -- in fact, the British Medical Journal and Lancet have both published research indicating that for teens, ADs frequently don't work or can have a higher risk of suicide. If the students were 18 or 19, they were still biologically teens even if they were officially "young adults".

But whether it's helicopter parenting, financial pressure, the result of a public school education (or lack thereof), or something in the water, I think universities need to respond to the reality that a significant number of students run into MH problems, and consider what constitutes a reasonable amount of pastoral care.

People with MH issues are often incapable of asking for help -- it's not like having a broken leg - so a system that requires troubled students to seek help doesn't work well for MH.

DD's uni has an excellent tutorial system (no, it's not Oxbridge!). Students have regular small group meetings with their tutors. This, in itself, is valuable on the academic side, but tutors also know if a student starts falling behind with coursework (often a sign of MH trouble) and can reach out to the student instead of the student having to ask for help. I don't know what it costs the uni, but would be great if it were more common for undergrads.

[Lules]

Not talking about the specifics of this situation, because I have no idea about what happened and it's extremely sad.

More generally, quietly we have that at my institution too. However it's not the be and end all. I know that some of my tutees have MH problems. But they are adults - I can point them to professional help, I can suggest we meet, I can put them in contact with various people, but utimately if they decline, and they do, that's their decision, apart from in extreme scenarios.

[sendsummer]

I think students are often underprepared for university: they are pushed and helicoptered by parents all the way through school; their teachers are under pressure to teach so that pupils "achieve" results.
Plus significant numbers of DCs end up wondering if they have chosen the right course during their first year. Sometimes the course choice is the result of a focus (influenced by school and parents) on the achievement of getting in rather than actually what happens at university ie the course content and workload or even after the degree.
I think when choosing more selective schools or sixth forms parents should be asking how many of the sixth form leavers go on to complete their selected university degrees rather than simply looking at leavers' destinations.

[bojorojo]

I cannot see how students with known mental health problems can possibly be looked after as well as they would be at home when they have chosen to go to a university many miles from home. It is simply not possible for them to receive the same level of care as a parent would give. Therefore continuing to live at home may be a better option for some. Other students do flourish.

I think the students living with the students who have died will feel absolutely dreadful. They will feel they could have done something to prevent these tragedies. I think that students who are struggling to form a network of friends by November do perhaps need some help but if they do not self-refer, who is responsible? I have yet to see that universities have pastoral care such as schools or care provided by parents. The halls of residence do have a few older students and a member of university staff available but few students make a bee line for them. I suspect Bristol does no more or less than most other universities and that it is unreasonable to think of a university as a school.

On another thread we discussed the unreasonable attainment pressures that students put upon themselves. Largely through ignorance and the fact some are always used to being top, and expect ludicrously high marks from day 1. Plenty of parents on mn seem to think a first is the only degree worth having. My DD went to Bristol and I don't think
Pastoral care entered her head. I also do not think happy students who have made friends really notice others who are not happy. They slip under the radar. Most new students are too involved in their own lives to notice others, or indeed have the worry of them.

I think it is extremely dangerous for a young person with a history of suicide attempts to go away to university with the new set of pressures that will bring. Care should be taken so that health needs take precedent over destination in some cases.

My younger DD did live in a self catering 6th form at school. It was useful up to a point but wasted a lot of time every week.

[bojorojo]

I do not think non completion of degrees is most likely to occur in students from selective schools. The highest drop out rates are in universities at the lower end of the higher education tables who recruit more students who are unsuitable for the courses. The lowest drop out rates are at the best universities who take a higher proportion of students from selective schools. Most schools have no idea who completes a degree or does not.

[namechangedfordaughter]

My daughter is in resus at the moment, she overdosed this evening. Not Bristol but UWE.

[namechangedfordaughter]

And she has no history of mental health problems, just felt isolated and lonely.

[TheFreaksShallInheritTheEarth]

I am so sorry namechanged

[Ilovelearning]

namechangedfordaughter, I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope everything works out okay tonight. Sending you hugs.

[Dunlurking]

namedchangedfordaughter I'm sorry. Wishing her a speedy recovery - keep us posted please.

[GetAHaircutCarl]

send if parents/students did focus on numbers of leavers finishing their degree and/or continuing at masters level you would find selective schools ( independent and state) doing very well.

The fact is that the most selective schools send students to the most selective courses which have low drop out rates.

In terms of switching courses there is no evidence that this is more prevalent amongst the selective school cohort. Though of course money might be a factor here (selective school parents tend the wealthier and thus less perturbed by the thought of financing an extra year).

TBH course hopping always took place even in the days of full grants. And students had MH issues in those days and yes, sadly there were suicides.

The truth is we don't know the causes of current problems and parents can only do so much.

[blueskyinmarch]

My DD is in first year at Bristol. She is aware of theses deaths and I have spoken to her about the need to talk to us if she is struggling in any way and she has agreed she would. She appears to be having a great time thankfully and has made a really solid group of friends. She is quite a quiet girl and it worried me that she might struggle with this so I am very thankful she is happy.

My niece attempted to take her own life a few years back. It was not at all premeditated and was done in reaction to something that happened which she just couldn't cope with. She was very lucky to be found just in time. I really feel for the families of those students.

[Megainstant]

It's not rocket science.

Fresher's week is a horrible outmoded tradition followed by the stress of constant exams and living alone with crap pastoral care from the university. Universities always sound so arrogant and shruggy in cases like this. It's a dog eat dog environment at most Unis and I certainly won't be encouraging my dds to go.

It's bollocks that it's got anything to do with parenting.

Of course on mumsnet if you still make your 9 year old breakfast you are setting them up for failure as a young adult

[blueskyinmarch]

They don't really have a traditional freshers week at Bristol though. DD talked of a Welcome week and it was mostly arranged through the individual halls. There didn't seem to be many big uni run events. I don't think the union in Bristol a big thing. I know DD had a wristband for her own halls events but only went to a few things. She also says most of her friends well you to independent schools, as she did. They all appear to be independent and capable young people. I rather suspect that the young people who have taken their lives in Bristol had their own particular set of issues and you can't really extrapolate from them.