Oxbridge Applicants for 2017

[HamletsSister]

DS has done his exam (Oxford, History) and written his essay. Now, the waiting begins.......

Anyone else?

Were you at school recently IcedVanilla?

I'm at school at the moment

Then your experience and perspective is limited, if you're normal school age.

I'm thirty; I was also in senior schools and FE from '97 to '02, then '03, then '06. Please try not to make assumptions.

Just what is your problem with me goodbyestranger? Surely there's nothing controversial in the idea that some state school pupils aren't given the same opportunity to think "hey, Oxbridge might be for me" (I said in my original post "standard" because while some grammars and very good comps very much make an effort to encourage suitable pupils to apply, many of your ordinary state schools don't), and certainly nothing controversial in giving my own personal experience and presenting it as such?

I didn't make assumptions that's why wrote 'if' you're a normal school age, not 'since'.

All I can add is that in my experience plenty of kids from state schools without parents who went to Oxford or Cambridge have managed not only to consider it as a possibility but also to secure an offer to study there.

Equally, a number of Oxbridge educated parents I know have had their DC not manage to get an offer. Genetics is a wonderful thing and can trump even the best private schooling and the most aspirational parenting.

Cross post. I don't have any problem with you IcedVanilla! Just a slight problem with sweeping statements which seem somewhat patronizing and are at odds with masses of students I know.

Nothing sweeping about a statement which uses the phrases "in my experience" and "don't necessarily".

You were clearly trying to invalidate my opinion with your post; a seventeen-year-old's experience (which, remember, is what I was posting about - my experience) is no less relevant.

I'm sure you do know masses of students but it's not patronising to recognise that some schools don't encourage Oxbridge as much as others. I had to explain to my tutor why some university applications might have to go in before October, and about registering for things like ELAT.

Fuck this, I'm off.

Of course some schools are abysmal when it comes to giving advice. In this cycle alone I had to counter the advice of a teacher who had crossed out the first paragraph of a personal statement for history with the words 'Should you really be wasting your personal statement naming/ discussing books that you've read?'. But to infer that only offspring of Oxbridge educated parents are likely to consider it as a possibility is just plain wrong, and that's what you did.

Agreed. For DS, and his friend, there was a huge amount of research, deadlines nearly missed etc. There is no "system" in place to help them through the maze. There will be now and maybe their experiences will filter down. Even if they don't get in - they have had a go and will both do very well elsewhere. Both already have unconditional from 1 Scottish Uni and will probably get more.

I'm inclined to think that while Iced's first post on this issue was a bit too broad, unfortunately the statistics do show pretty unambiguously that kids from 'standard state schools' are underrepresented at oxbridge. And it does seem to be because they're not getting enough applicants rather than that those who do apply are being discriminated against.

My DD is at a 'nonstandard' state 6th form - a GS which actively encourages the girls to have a shot if they've got a chance. Of the various kids I know of her age, most go to sixth form colleges. One does do cambridge trips and special 'high achievers' sessions but another seems to give dire advice - not even discussing facilitating subjects etc such that some bright kids are going to be restricted in their uni choices. ... actually when I think of one of them,

Yes of course some state schools give shit advice and shouldn't, that's hardly news. Seeing a personal statement scored out with shockingly ignorant comments tracked by the side was a very visual reminder of that. I wasn't taking issue with that, rather with the idea that state school kids with non Oxbridge parents are doomed to follow in their footsteps, at best.

'doesn't necessarily even think of Oxford/Cambridge' doesn't quite equate to 'they're all doomed' you know!

Oxford had 7,000 state school applications in 2015, I assume the same at Cambridge, so 14,000 a year.
The latest overall data I can find (2012) says 12.7% of 260k students got AAA or better.
Basically, around 50% of those who achieved AAA or better applied to Oxbridge. This does not suggest a general failing among state schools, although some are obviously rubbish.
Interestingly, of the 7,000 state school applicants to Oxford, only 460 are grammers.

Does anyone know offhand what proportion of yr 13s are in GS?

From personal experience I can say I do feel ds1 was not supported well at his State School.

Ds's school were very positive in verbal support but made no comments or changes to his ps. The only practical help was to arrange a mock interview with the teachers of a local private school.

In contrast my friends dd in year 12 at a private school has already been given an extensive reading list for her subject for her to read during year 12 in readiness for her Oxbridge application for admission in 2018. She has also attended a one day subject related session at Cambridge.

I totally accept that if ds1 was that keen he could have sorted out reading lists etc himself but it was only after his AS results that he had the confidence to think he was good enough to apply.

Ds1 did not get an interview and this is not sour grapes - he is very happy with the other offers he has received but certainly some private schools do identify potential oxbridge candidates earlier and give support earlier which can only help.

Errol this is incredibly rough, but there are 164 grammars with approximately 1000 pupils in each, so divided by seven for year 13 is around 23,500. That makes the assumption that pupils don't leave in the sixth form to go elsewhere, which of course quite a few do.

Both universities have expended huge amounts of time, energy and money on widening access.

A lot of good work has been done, with some real success IMVHO.

However there are definitely sticking points within schools, that the universities can do little about. Outreach can't be a substitute for good advice etc.

My DC have had a very good education at their grammar but not one of the seven who have gone through the sixth form has ever had a single book suggested to them for 'Oxbridge entry', nor have they all been 'actively' encouraged to apply (I would say it's more a case of not being actively discouraged, with the exception of the eldest DD who was on some sort of a list). Also, each has only had a single interview with a teacher from the school, where only DC7's questions were Oxbridge style and ironically he's statistically the least likely to get in. It's an easy mistake to make to think that grammar school kids are trained up to the eyeballs. Anyhow, the tutors are at pains to say that school led preparation doesn't help, indeed can be counter productive, so I'm not convinced that mine have been at a huge disadvantage compared to private school kids although I appreciate that they're at a significant advantage over poorer quality state schools in terms of general education which is really where it's all at, not in the flashy Oxbridge classes which so many independents market. I don't think one can point the finger at that.

I think the days when private/public schools shoehorned in pupils to Oxbridge are past. My cousins went on closed scholarships (places reserved for certain public schools). Obviously they get more help - I read on here a poster saying her dc's school shipped in a team of "personal statement writers" at the appropriate time - but at the end of the day you have to be clever . The "anybody can have a go" mantra (Michelle Obama telling girls at a London school they could go there if they wanted) is bound to set up a great many people for disappointment. And there are only a certain number of places. Even if every applicant is a genius the majority are going to be rejected.

If parents have been to Oxbridge then they are quite likely to have clever children - so that's why the line might continue. Even if parents haven't been to Oxbridge then if they've got anything about them they can use something called The Internet which I find is moderately helpful. Last year a poster said they had called in lots of help for their dc - including their MP !!!!!!!!!!!! . I used the university website, The Student Room and Mumsnet! Then let us not forget the actual applicant, who has to actually like their subject enough to read extra stuff. Any extra stuff, really, not things on reading lists.

I went to a (top) grammar school. Advice there was zero. Apart from you may only apply to a women's college or we will not support your application. Ds goes to a comprehensive school. Advice there little better and certainly no personal statement assistance. But, hey, you can Google and find many, many examples.

There is an article in this week's Economist on how Oxford is trying to extend their intake. At the moment 59% of their students come from state schools, compared with 67% of state school students who attain the three A grades necessary for admission. The problem seems to be more geographical at the moment, with some poorer areas of the country almost completely unrepresented.

I was talking to a friend whose grandson, although very bright (he ended up at Imperial) he was not offered a place at Cambridge for maths. She felt that, although his very good state school were up to scratch on the academics, they hadn't really prepared him at all well for the interview process, and he also did badly in Cambridge's own test.

its the more subtle things that he;p the private school kids though, last week my shy DD had 5 or 6 other kids form her (private) school interviewing at oxford at the same time so had company in the evenings and explored all 'their' colleges together.
She really enjoyed the few days there and can picture herself going if she gets in.
If you are the only candidate from your school there for interview the process could be quite intimidating.

For those whose DC's felt their interviews went badly, take heart. It's not meant to be easy!. Many of these kids will have sailed through school by and large at the top of their academic cohort. Then suddenly the Oxford interview really challenges them and stretches their thinking, because that's what the process is all about. GCSE and A levels now are so formulaic and the interview is not. finding it hard may just mean they are thinking hard rather than just spouting the first answer that comes into their head.
Re po faced tutors. I actually think there is little excuse for this, but reality is that many dons didn't get where they are today by having good interpersonal skills. It's not personal.
Good luck to all interviewees. Now my DS is at uni (not Oxbridge). I realise how privileged I was to go to Oxford and over 30 years later I have so many good memories and friends from my time there.

I'm sure there must be a strong element of stereotype threat - that some kids, even if Oxbridge does impinge on their consciousness will think its not for 'people like us'. Apart from the perception that they're for posh people, there's also a south vs north/other regions bias. I'm somewhat surprised by quite a lot of DDs pals pretty much restricting their choices to northern (including some Scottish) unis. I dont think its any easier to get to st andrews from where we are than it is to oxford or even Cambridge.