Room in student house without a window

[Evalina]

DD's in her second year and has moved into what is otherwise a nice student house. However her room has no window. It has 2 doors, one into the hall and the other into a kitchen/lounge. So she has no natural light and no direct ventilation. She does get some light (and reduced privacy) through the frosted glazed door between her and the kitchen, but if she opens it to get air, then she gets cooking fumes and noise too.

We have raised it with local council HMO office who are not being very responsive, although they have spoken to landlord who has put in a brighter lightbulb! Landlord has said to DD's housemates that he knows loads of people at the council, and that if he's told to do anything it won't happen until next summer, so DD is wasting her time complaining about it. He's also said his wife is having a baby and is stressed at the thought they might have to pay to sort it out. As a result DD's housemates, who all have nice rooms with proper windows, are telling her to drop it, even though they have all declined to swap rooms with her.

I believe the problem could be fixed for less than £5k, which given collectively they are paying £38k in rent for the year is not too shocking.

Not sure what else to do really. Anyone got any advice?

Only my opinion, but if this house has been previously passed as adhering to HMO & building regs guidelines , I think talk of contacting local papers / MP , talk of corruption is somewhat premature. Think about what the fire officer would have preferred but is not enshrined in LA guidelines. You have a choice, if it is already or can be made most cheaply according to regulations , I would bet folding money that is what the LL will do. Or she moves. Check your facts OP and then if it ends up e.g. she needs a glazed door replacing with a fire resistant glazed door, or some other work then fair enough , but do keep on with not making a big deal about it (to her) . And lesson learned.

I had a further thought about this. I bet the room your daughter is in wasn't ever meant for sleeping in and when there was the original inspection it passed because this was not shown as a letting bedroom. all of the information about this property is and should be in the public domain. you can request copies and if they aren't forthcoming within say a week then you can request formally under the freedom of information act.

Yyy!
Very likely.

People working with and knowing each other in more way than one does not equal 'corruption', that idea - as a natural assumption at least - is verging unhelpfully into paranoic territory.

Stay reasonable, ask questions, talk to the university accommodation office. Recognise that guidelines are not obligatory and that building regs allow some room for interpretation and include 'as far as could reasonably be ascertained' type caveats.

If, after pursuing all reasonable channels, you do feel the council is not telling you everything and that people may have been careless, poorly trained or influenced by others, you could make a freedom of information request to the council for everything connected with the property in the last few years.

How's the young councillor getting on?

Ah cross post on FOI there!

mummymeister you are right I think. I had a chat with a helpful chap in Building Control today. He said that Building Control pass it as being compliant at that specific point in time. He didn't think any drawings had been submitted with the application, but that the surveyor who had assessed it was one of their most experienced guys.

The most likely scenario is that at the time the Building Regs were approved that there was an open doorway (which is quite wide) between DD's bedroom and the kitchen, and it would have been considered a dining room. With a permanent opening between that room and the kitchen it would meet the ventilation requirements. So that seems a reasonable explanation for that at least.

Nothing yet back from the young councillor. I emailed the HMO officer's manager so am giving him a bit of time to respond.

May I ask what would be the best outcome from all this that will be to you and dd satisfaction. If landlord gives deposit back and any rent in advance would that be satisfactory. Gives opportunity for your dd to find somewhere else room with a window. Or she happy to stay in the room providing they do all the alterations needed. I can see the landlord may well want to give back deposit and rent to save him all the trouble and hassle once he finds out he has hell coming his way. Rightly so if he has been bending the rules.

What we would like is for the room/house to have the following changes, which would make it compliant:

DD's room to be extended slightly into the kitchen/lounge so that the skylight is in her bedroom. There to be no door at this point, but instead a partition wall. This would give her ventilation, natural light, fire protection, reduced noise and improved privacy. It would also make better use of the space in the kitchen/lounge as that area is currently just outside her door so can't be used for any furniture. All the bedroom doors to be upgraded to Fire Doors.

It's not an option for the LL to just return DD's rent and deposit. She has a contract and she doesn't wish to leave her friends, so he can't just evict her.

I have now found confirmation in the fire regulations which confirms my belief that it is a requirement for there to be proper 30 minute protection between her bedroom and the kitchen. Something that the HMO officer denied was a requirement.

was the house advertised as 6 bedroom house?

His solution could be finding a room in another of his houses with fulfils his contract - I really think there is a risk of things being pushed to her having to move out . If work needs doing it could take months and your daughter may have to move out. If it is unsafe it is unsafe and she may need to move out immediately.
Make sure you have thought all your options through for your daughters sake.

Where's she going to live during all this building work? Someone else might not want to share their room. And what would the other students' opinion be on the disruption? You are adamant that your dd wants to live with these friends. Sorry to be blunt, but I can't see them really wanting to live with her much longer with all this hoo ha.

Just to clarify , I am not suggesting she lives somewhere unsafe ,it wouldn't hurt to investigate alternative living arrangements.

I think it very unlikely building work will be carried out , by declaring the room unsafe you really should move her there is no compromise on that.

It would be in your daughter's best interests to find a quick simple solution to the fire safety so she and her housemates can live in peace or a quick move so she can settle.

It was advertised as a 6 bedroom house yes. The building work is minor - 2 partition walls around a small space equivalent to the space used when opening a door. Implementation of Fire Doors also not a big job. Building Control guy said none of this work should take more than a couple of days. This would fix all of the issues identified.

Yes I agree totally on a quick solution, which is why I have been looking to understand the legislation so that I can have an informed discussion with the right people.

I have had an email this morning from the Young Councillor who has spoken to the Head of the Housing Department, as well as an email from the Leader of the HMO team, both of whom have confirmed they are looking into it and will come back to me to address the specific concerns I have raised.

If they can confirm that the room is fine and habitable, then DD will stay and make the best of it. If they can't (and I do not think they can),then they will need to fix it, and they can tell the LL to do the work.

The LL should then do the work (it's not an expensive job, and he risks not only this year's rent, but next year's too if he doesn't). It's also not a long job, so DD can come home for the weekend, or share with a friend for a couple of days. If neither of those are feasible, I have a cousin who lives a few miles outside of the city, so she could put DD up for a week or so, although not ideal as she'd need to drive in and so we'd need to get the car there.

Ok, sounds good (I feel a bit 'in for a penny in for a pound' with this thread!).

Two questions:

1. Are you proposing that the new walls boxing in the skylight be erected without removing the existing cave/kitchen wall? Creating a lobby to the cave room, allowing light from the skylight to enter via the existing doorway only? Just that, if the kitchen is an extension, the cave/kitchen wall will be the old external, supporting wall, so removing it is probably possible but not as easy or without risk as shifting a partition wall. Yet, will light coming in through a lobby doorway be enough?

Might a simpler interim solution be to install a glass fire door to the kitchen, plus a ventilation grille in the door or wall to the hall? I know you've said the hall is no good but I haven't understood why. It may not contain fresh air but it does contain air. Air is what you need to avoid a CO / O2 imbalance and provide adequate ventilation. There must be a link to the outside world somewhere, front door? Also older houses are badly insulated enough to allow plenty of air flow e.g. Drafts round doors and windows, they're not airtight units.

2. Is there any possibility the ll can say 'I won't do the work until the summer (or ever), so I hereby downgrade the house to a five bed and offer a full refund to your dd accordingly.' You say he can't break the contract because the tenants have done nothing wrong but this is a 'no fault' situation, it's only now been drawn to his attention there is a problem. If he offered to out her up elsewhere, that might accord with the 'emergency / unexpected event' part of the contract, that would apply in the case of fire, flood etc.

I do agree with you that fire safety is paramount, smoke kills and people do sleep through fire alarms. A fire door to the kitchen is imperative.

Surely won't be a no-fault situation if it turns out that the building regs were signed off for a 5 bed house and he's renting it out as 6 bed? As the landlord it's his job to make sure it meets fire regs.
A no-fault situation would be one where the regs changed or a new problem arose like a flood that was no-one's fault.

If she has 5 other residents coming in and out day and night through the hall way there will be fresh air (even if 2 doors) Just an opinion and one which I would go with with DS if he had a crap room.

lottiegarbanzo yes that's pretty much right. The current external glazed door between DD's room and the kitchen is actually wider than a normal door. It is more like the width of french windows if that makes sense. So if that door was removed, and the new partition walls added, without changing the original back wall of the house, it would create a small lobby/alcove in DD's room with a skylight in. It would just about be wide enough for a desk. She would then just have one door - to the hallway.

If a glass fire door to the kitchen and a vent in the hallway door would provide enough ventilation, then yes that would be an alternative solution. I don't like it as much, as it doesn't improve the light levels, or help with noise, but yes if it met the standards, that would work. However the ventilation requirement where air is not from a direct external source, is a permanent opening to another room, equivalent to the size of 1/20th of the floor space of DD's room, and so a vent gets nowhere near.

re him downgrading the house to 5 bedrooms, no I don't believe so. There are laws to protect tenants from being evicted if they have raised a complaint about their living standards. Also it would not be in his interests - due to the joint and several contract he would be looking at terminating the whole contract, as DD does not have an individual one. I think he would struggle to let it again to another group of 5 students until next summer.

Was thinking no fault as the HMO officer has signed it off as a six bed. So if that's wrong it's the council's mistake.

Yes the LL is responsible for fire safety etc but he's also, perhaps, been badly advised by the council.

Ah, cross post. Well that all sounds quite good - well lit alcove for desk sounds lovely. Other option feasible maybe.

Was thinking this afternoon about the actual and possible fires I experienced or knew about as a student; an acquaintance's house burned down by someone's candles, our grill left on all night, smoke / incipient fire caused by faulty electricity meter. It does happen and HMOs, especially populated by drunk, stoned or easily distracted students are the worst, all the more so if not properly maintained.

Good luck.

Yes maybe, and I will not deny that is a concern. However, the LL has a legal duty to know and obey the law, so I do not think this would wash in any court case to dissolve the contract. They would just need to sit tight and stay in the property.

IF I am correct, then the council are also at fault, and should never have approved the licence. This is a crucial thing to determine.

I have had a quick look online and there is a very nice, obviously just being refurbished 6 bedroom house about half a mile away, available from the end of November. It is even pricier at £145pwpp, and I will watch with interest to see how quickly it goes.

None of them in the house want to move, but if it turns out there really is no choice (which I do think is very unlikely), then an option would be to take that one and sue the LL and/or the council for the difference in rent. But it really is in everyone's interests to make the minor changes needed and DD may need to compromise to make that happen (depending on what that compromise is of course).

Why on earth would the LL return rent and deposit? He has done nothing wrong.The DD had the opportunity to view the house as it is before she signed the contract.The room was then and has in the last few days been certified by the council as being fit to be let out.The OP is living in cloud cuckoo land!

The LL has done plenty wrong. He has broken the law, and needs to rectify that quickly. I'm not suggesting he return the rent and the deposit though. What I am saying is that if the house was deemed to be uninhabitable and that resulted in the group needing to find more expensive alternative accommodation then yes, it should be possible to sue for the difference in cost.

However, I do not think that is a solution in anyone's interests or necessary at all. I was merely responding to the 'what if' questions posed by other posters.

DD is not supposed to be an expert in ventilation and fire standards - that is the LL's responsibility, and one he has failed in.

Evalina, I wonder if the changes you describe would be allowed or if they would mean there was no longer a second exit, ie fire escape, from the kitchen?
In any case it would have to all go through building regs again - I wonder if that would have implications.

There are currently 3 exits from the kitchen, one outside, one into DD's room and the third into the hall - so this should not be a problem.

Building regs - not sure, but yes potentially so. However I do not think that is a long process, you normally do the work to building regs standards and then get it signed off - so it shouldn't cause any delay.

I am glad that you are not letting this go and quite fascinated by posters who are trying to somehow blame this on your dd.

It's a good thing that there are tenacious people who will keep on and make little changes that benefit everyone.