A level choices and science degrees - advice needed (long, sorry)

[SunnySunday]

My DS is now in Year 11. He is pretty clear that he would like to go to university, but really isn't sure what subject he will want to study. When I ask him what subjects interest him, he says he tends to get interested in whatever he is doing. I think that's a reasonably truthful answer. When he chose his GCSE options in Year 9 there were no subjects that he actively wanted to drop, it was more a case of having to prioritise because it was impossible to continue with everything. For GCSE he opted for triple science, French, German and drama. Maths, English and RE were compulsory.

At my DS's school, his year group will be asked to choose 3 subjects at A level. DS would be up for doing German at A level. That is probably his best subject relative to his peers, ie he consistently comes top in German, and I have no doubt that he would be capable of doing it at A level. He is also similarly capable at French, but has shown less enthusiasm about taking that on to A level. Whilst DS enjoys learning languages, he is not at all into reading novels for pleasure, so I don't think a "traditional" degree in a MFL would suit him. Other subjects he has considered for A level are maths, physics and chemistry. At the last parents' evening, the teachers in all these subjects were of the view that DS would be A level material in these subjects. DS is good at these subjects, but not the top student. He never comes top at maths, but (in a decent comprehensive) is consistently in the top half of the top set, sometimes but not always in the top 10. Similar in physics and chemistry, though he would on average come closer to the top in those subjects than in maths.

I have been inclined to advise DS that doing some kind of science degree would probably be the best option, on the grounds that in a competitive jobs market, a science degree equips you both for jobs that specifically require a degree in that subject and those that just require a degree. But I don't know whether the right advice is that if he wants to go down the science route at a good university, it is best for all 3 A levels to be in maths and/or science subjects, ie no room on the timetable for German. I have a vague memory of reading that if you are doing A level physics, you really need to do A level maths too in order to cope with the maths in physics A level. Would welcome views on whether that is true, and whether the same also holds true for chemistry.

I would also welcome views on what advice you would give to an A level student about choosing a science-based degree. I dropped maths and science after O levels, so do not feel at all well equipped to advise. I know there will be posters thinking that my DS needs to make all these choices for himself. I agree, but he is pretty unsure what to do for the best and would welcome some advice. Any thoughts on A level choices and ultimate degree choices welcome!

Fwiw DD Did French, psychology and art a levels before deciding she wanted to do a zoology degree. Got good grades, found a uni offering a foundation year for non-science a level students, did that then her degree. so even if h decided to switch later on all may not be lost.

LittleHoHum - but it helps if they can get good predicted grades in the first place so that they get the offers even if they don't make the grades
That way they don't necessarily need clearing or adjustment.

Just logging on to say thank you for all the further replies, which I have read quickly and plan to read in more detail tomorrow.

As some posters have (quite rightly) asked what level DS is at his subjects, I thought I'd come back with a bit more information in case it changes anyone's advice.

In maths DS's target is a 7, which I understand is the equivalent of an A (or possibly a low A*) under the old system.

In DS's ISAs (assessments that count towards the GCSE) he has so far got a B in physics and A in chemistry. Notwithstanding this, he is adamant that he is generally better at physics than chemistry. (He tells me that the physics ISA comprised two papers and he got the equivalent of an A* in one and C in the other.) I gather he will get the opportunity to do further ISAs and the highest one will count towards the GCSE.

Although DS is clear that he is generally better at physics than chemistry, he seems to find chemistry more fun.

In his German assessments (one spoken, one written) he got A in the written assessment and doesn't yet know the mark for the spoken assessment, but the teacher estimated it would be an A. In French he got A for both assessments.

So if DS were picking subjects purely on the basis of what he is likely to get good grades in, my advice would be to pick French and German! But DS is clear that improved earning potential is important to him in his choice of degree. He is also clear that he is interested in science in any event.

DS is very clear that he wants to stay at his existing school for sixth form. For last year at least, the school's requirements were for a B at GCSE in order to take any of the above subjects at A level.

Based on the advice received so far, I have advised DS that he should definitely do A level maths if he has any thoughts of doing a science degree. If he picks German it will rule out not just degrees for which chemistry/physics (depending which one he drops) is compulsory, but also some degree courses which require 3 A levels in science/maths subjects. However, for a course which requires maths, one science plus another subject, I am wondering whether choosing German might be a tactical move, being a subject in which he is likely to get a good grade.

A shame we are not still on the 4 AS levels then 3 A levels system - that would have suited DS much better!

If he does do Maths, Chem or Phys and German then that is a slightly unusual combination. Before he gets too attached to the idea, check with the school that it will be possible within their timetable constraints

That's a good point, thanks.

Not sure its that unusual - DD has pals doing maths 2 sci and a language

OP said German "is a subject which I could foresee being at risk of being dropped as an A level option altogether if numbers are low." Not all schools / sixth form colleges can offer every permutation under the sun.

If your DS is looking at future earning potential, then Chemical Engineering scores highly - he'll need maths and chemistry (although he will need to love maths to do well in it).

For many careers it is the high grades which count so my children have tended to pick the subjects they were best in. the only one who went for science A levels (on that basis) - did physics, chemistry, economics and geography and ended up reading geog at university and wished she had not done physics and chemistry A level as they were a lot harder thwn GCSE (she had A in those two at GCSE). Now that might just be her - and my other chidlren - who tend to find arts easier than sciences (although I would not say we are bad at maths, I love it and the children all got A or A but it is very much harder at A2).

Do me careful. My twins just got AAAA in their AS levels (which is pretty good) doing non sciences but facilitating type subjects whcih is a good start for the A2 years. A lot of their friends who prefer science and maths and whose parents not unwisely are pushing them into STEM subejcts (but perhaps where those children are not suited to those subjects) have got much worse grades.

I would go for German, French and Maths A levels if I were him or one of the sciences instead of maths, get all A or A* and then pick a career like top city lawyer (£1m a year earnings etc - my daughters and I are London lawyers although not quite on £1m a year yet - I keep trying) or all those companies like management consultancy firms, advertising agencies or the financial services firms who might like the maths A level. Would he consider economics at university? Could he do A level maths, economics and german?

I did A level German and still find it useful so many years on by the way. Sehr gut.

I don't by the way disagree with the comments above about engineering and pay but I have known loads of engineers wanting to requalify as lawyers and patent agents because they want higher pay.

There is a saying that at university level 'Biology is really Chemistry, Chemistry is really Physics and Physics is really Maths'. Might be worth baring in mind if be is considering Physics/Chemistry later. I agree with lots of others who say Maths, German and Physics/Chemistry could be good. Unless he loves Science, it may give a bit of variety. I did Physics and Maths and there was some overlap, I imagine the same with Chemistry.

As a chemist, I'd say chemistry is chemistry, physics and maths.

And also that while thinking about possible salaries a good idea, is it something you'd really want to do with your life?(Chem eng may pay well, but I'd hate working on a chemical plant). Top flight lawyer sounds good, but last I heard theres an oversupply of people with law degrees.

Thank you for the further posts. Me2017, your post completely sums up the dilemma, ie. is it always better to pick the subjects in which you are most likely to get the best grades, or can it sometimes be better to pick science or maths even when they are not your best bet for getting the highest grades? For MFL I have the understanding to be able to see that DS will be able to make the jump from GCSE to A level. For science and maths, I just know. We have a parents' evening coming up at school, so I should probably push the teachers to give a guesstimate as to what grades they think DS might achieve at A level.

I am also a lawyer (outside London and in no danger of earning £1M pa either now or in the future ). I agree with you that if applying for a law degree it is grades that are all important, much more so than choice of subject at A level. In my own career I have prioritised other factors over maximising my earnings, but I am under no illusions about the hours you have to put in to become a top city lawyer. I think for that reason I am a bit wary of encouraging DS down that route (though equally I would not discourage him if he was keen to pursue a legal career). DS's attitude is that it's important to him to earn a decent salary, but that he'd take a reasonable salary and reasonable hours over a super salary but working very long hours. I have no idea what hours a science graduate working in industry might typically work (and I imagine that any "average" might hide a lot of variation).

That should read "For science and maths I just don't know" !

You're right, I'm not sure theres such a thing as a typical scientist working in industry. Also note, for the real science roles inc technical management you generally need a PhD.

I work with scientists as I do quite a bit of IP law. There are so many different types it is hard to generalise. My advice to the children so far has always been keep your options open, get as high grades as you can, pick a university based on its status to employers (even if employers are out of date in what they think is a high status one). Do as much work experience as possible so you can see what different jobs are like - they have tended to ignore me on that one, silly children.

Pick work you will find intellectually challenging for the rest of your life ( professions probably better than other careers as there is a set path, pay rises, clear route to the top if you want the top, high status in our society for professions) and you will enjoy. Also try to pick work where ultimately you could work for yourself if you want to. Eg someone working 10 years in an advertising agency or as an architect or lawyer or NHS doctor could probably then work for themselves when and how they want to and for their own profit.

So far we have London lawyer, London lawyer, postman (his degree was ancient history) and not sure about the younger ones but they are applying now for university and it will not be a career specific degree like medicine.

If he needs science and maths for a career and he can get the grades he will need for those go for those. One of my adult children yesterday said had they taken my advice to stick with what I regarded as easier subjects not her sciences she would have had AAA (no A* in her day). She got AAC and has done pretty well as a lawyer since, but the C she thinks did (not surprisingly) put some employers off. Some job applications rquire you to incput your UCAS points (by the way I read for 2017 UCAS points are changing in a rather complex way). On the other hand there was no way anyone could give her advice as a teenager; of all the children she knew the one right path on everything as a teenage girl, a complete force of nature, not to be diverted from her path, and good for her, some teenagers are like that. I don't want lap dog chidlren who follow parental instructions. And had she taken history and English A levels may be she would still have got that one C. I suspect not however.

In your son's case I would try to persuade him to pick the subjects in which he will get the best grades.

One of my twins has just had a huge dilemma of which of the 4 AS subjects to drop as one he did not prefer he was almost guaranteed an A already because of his high AS score. Instead he's given that up and picked to continue economics which I think has no credit for high scores LVI in the previous year (they are the year of transition for the new A2) because he likes that subject more and because it apparently involves less work outside of the lessons. Some children prioritise whatever means least work. Laughing as I type..... Although to be fair to him he is working pretty hard now.

I keep thinking of some of their friends who messed up AS, got things like D in maths. Some are going to have a gap year after Upper sixth, work very hrd for A2, get they hope a high grade in A2 and then apply to university with their A2 marks known so they can correct the poor scores at AS in that sense. One won't be able to do medicine but can do something for 3 years first to pre- qualify and then do it. Another I think is going to do it somewhere abroad where it's easier. Lots of tactical choices going on but the big problem caused in my view by the fact too many teenagers are being pushed into maths and science when they won't get high grades in them. That does not mean some children won't do really well in maths, science etc. If that is their thing they are great subjects to do.

Gosh, that was long. You can tell I'm putting off starting work....

Me2017, thank you for your post - lots that I agree with in there! I think one key thing will be to try to push the teachers at parents' evening not just to say whether DS is capable of doing an A level in the subject, but also to give some sort of estimate as to what grade he might get. It's tricky because I can see that teachers might (a) be over-optimistic if they are concerned about getting enough students for their subject; or (b) be overly cautious about making a high prediction.

The other option is (if he can hack it) he takes 4 A levels - sciences plus German.