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Higher education

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A level choices and science degrees - advice needed (long, sorry)

69 replies

SunnySunday · 25/09/2016 17:03

My DS is now in Year 11. He is pretty clear that he would like to go to university, but really isn't sure what subject he will want to study. When I ask him what subjects interest him, he says he tends to get interested in whatever he is doing. I think that's a reasonably truthful answer. When he chose his GCSE options in Year 9 there were no subjects that he actively wanted to drop, it was more a case of having to prioritise because it was impossible to continue with everything. For GCSE he opted for triple science, French, German and drama. Maths, English and RE were compulsory.

At my DS's school, his year group will be asked to choose 3 subjects at A level. DS would be up for doing German at A level. That is probably his best subject relative to his peers, ie he consistently comes top in German, and I have no doubt that he would be capable of doing it at A level. He is also similarly capable at French, but has shown less enthusiasm about taking that on to A level. Whilst DS enjoys learning languages, he is not at all into reading novels for pleasure, so I don't think a "traditional" degree in a MFL would suit him. Other subjects he has considered for A level are maths, physics and chemistry. At the last parents' evening, the teachers in all these subjects were of the view that DS would be A level material in these subjects. DS is good at these subjects, but not the top student. He never comes top at maths, but (in a decent comprehensive) is consistently in the top half of the top set, sometimes but not always in the top 10. Similar in physics and chemistry, though he would on average come closer to the top in those subjects than in maths.

I have been inclined to advise DS that doing some kind of science degree would probably be the best option, on the grounds that in a competitive jobs market, a science degree equips you both for jobs that specifically require a degree in that subject and those that just require a degree. But I don't know whether the right advice is that if he wants to go down the science route at a good university, it is best for all 3 A levels to be in maths and/or science subjects, ie no room on the timetable for German. I have a vague memory of reading that if you are doing A level physics, you really need to do A level maths too in order to cope with the maths in physics A level. Would welcome views on whether that is true, and whether the same also holds true for chemistry.

I would also welcome views on what advice you would give to an A level student about choosing a science-based degree. I dropped maths and science after O levels, so do not feel at all well equipped to advise. I know there will be posters thinking that my DS needs to make all these choices for himself. I agree, but he is pretty unsure what to do for the best and would welcome some advice. Any thoughts on A level choices and ultimate degree choices welcome!

OP posts:
senua · 26/09/2016 08:58

It's a couple of years out of date, but here's some data from the Guardian.

user1474361571 · 26/09/2016 08:59

The world is full of DC wanting to do science degrees so competition is fierce.

This is utterly wrong. We massively underproduce science graduates in the UK, and salaries for science graduates are correspondingly rather high. It is not difficult to get offers for science from top 10/20 universities - outside the top handful you will automatically get an offer if you have predicted grades in the right ballpark. For example, outside the top 6 or so universities, all physics courses were taking 1-2 grades lower than their standard offers in Clearing this year.

It's true that MFL courses are also under-subscribed but the graduate prospects in MFL are on the whole poorer than those for science. If you want to do MFL, great, but don't do it because you think it's easier to get into than sciences.

As pointed out above, there are many options to combine science with languages at university, either as a minor "science with language" or by taking several language modules as part of the degree.

Bluebelltulip · 26/09/2016 09:18

Two science subjects and a language should be a useful combination but looking at degree requirements is very important, generally maths is needed for science and engineering (possibly not for biology though). I second the chemical engineering suggestion it offers great variety and good range of prospects after. Sometimes the a levels not/required might not be obvious, when I applied for chem eng, maths and chemistry were required but physics wasn't .

senua · 26/09/2016 09:24

outside the top handful you will automatically get an offer if you have predicted grades in the right ballpark. [my italics]

This is the burning question, isn't it - what level is OP's son?
more data

NotCitrus · 26/09/2016 09:43

He'll have the most options later if he does Maths, ideally double maths, followed by Chemistry or Physics. Degrees with a year in industry, especially abroad, tend to have the best employment prospects.

FWIW I did German A-level and sciences without maths, which did get me into Cambridge despite the school saying they'd never take me. I do wish I had maths A-level, but as my school taught it so badly, I made the right choice and have no regrets (I worked in industry during my gap year and a lab between years 2 and 3, which made up for the lack of sandwich year).

titchy · 26/09/2016 09:53

but if your son takes maths, physics and German he may find it hard to get on a science course.

Sorry but that's rubbish. That combination would get him several offers for Physics from top 10 universities. The top four would want FM, but the rest will be falling over themselves to offer.

museumum · 26/09/2016 10:02

if it was me I'd be thinking seriously about different types of engineering and I'd be trying to keep the German. Definitely no doubt keep the maths and then choose physics or chemistry.
I really hate the English system of maths and further maths taking two of your three subjects, if he's not certain then it's awfully narrowing.

user1474361571 · 26/09/2016 10:08

You could get into top 10 physics courses this year with ABB/BBB.

ErrolTheDragon · 26/09/2016 11:25

Doing maths, fm and physics isn't the same burden if the pupil is good at maths as any other three other subjects. Any school which doesn't allow those plus a fourth ( at least at the outset, even if they drop one) is doing their students a disservice.

catslife · 26/09/2016 12:15

I would say either Chemistry or Physics with Maths and German would be a good combination. Both Chemistry and Physics require good maths skills. As others have said there are degree courses where students can study either Physics or Chemistry with a language and these may be a good option for your ds.
I think that it is possible (in theory) to take a Chemistry (or biochemistry) degree without A level maths, but if this is the case students often have to do a Maths course in their first year to bridge the gap so probably better to be taught a level at sixth form imo.

ErrolTheDragon · 26/09/2016 12:41

cats - I would have thought that all chemistry degrees would have maths and stats courses - for those with A level maths too. Back when I did mine those with decent A level maths did a harder course than those with no a level or low grades. All sciences need a good working knowledge of statistics; kinetics requires some knowledge of calculus, some branches use complex numbers (which are only in FM afaik), just to give a few examples. TBH if you want to come out with a good degree, having to play catchup at the start doesn't seem like a great idea.

bojorojo · 26/09/2016 12:53

For the best students, FM has to be a fourth subject, as Errol says. Lots of the top universities make this clear that this is what they like because subject breadth is less if there are two maths at A level out of three. Having to do catch up work at university is never fun if it is a requirement. Doing extra language tuition would be much more desirable addition to his skill set.

InformalRoman · 26/09/2016 13:16

Was going to suggest Geology as well, which generally needs at least one science subject (although I'd recommend maths and chemistry) - who knows, by the time your son graduates the oil industry may have picked up and there might even be some jobs available.

ErrolTheDragon · 26/09/2016 13:22

No, I don't think I said that, as its not what I think, based on info from open days, emails to admissions tutors and perusal of course requirements! For some sorts of eng and physics, double maths and physics are exactly what they prefer. The point is that unless the pupil is certain aged 16 thats what they want to do, then just those three will exclude them from other courses for which FM may be desirable only as a fourth subject, eg economics, and obviously rule out chemistry etc. My DD did double maths, physics and computer science to AS last year and has now dropped the CS to focus on getting the high grades needed for the best places for elec eng. It is the right thing for some people.

For the OPs DS, if he's limited to 3 choices and wants to keep his options somewhat open then FM almost certainly wouldn't be a good idea.

moonbells · 26/09/2016 13:25

Physicist here, who did Maths, FM and Physics for A level a few decades years ago and then did German at night school once all the university stuff was finished. It's a lot easier to do that way round. I did want to do Maths, Physics and Chemistry but school changed me after a month becuase they knew I was going to do Physics at uni no matter what. Still regret not doing Chem but never found a night school locally that would do it.

OP, if I were your DS, I'd do the sciences, and keep the MFL for night school later on. If he comes out with a good degree in a hard science, he could always go to Germany to either work or do a further degree, and then the language just happens! Or even go to Germany for the 1st degree. A lot of them are taught in English anyway!

catslife · 26/09/2016 13:27

I don't know about all degrees, but when I was at uni (in the days where 3 A levels was the norm) those without A level maths (doing Biochem / Chemistry) did an A level equivalent course which they HAD to pass at the end of Y1, those taking Chemistry had a maths for chemistry course that was slightly harder than A level.
It wasn't possible to take Physics without Maths A level and Physicists had a Maths course that was nearly as hard as those taking degrees in maths.
I guess that with 3 A levels becoming the norm again, this type of system could well be re-introduced if it doesn't exist now.

InformalRoman · 26/09/2016 13:44

moonbells I wondered about advising OP to have a look at German universities - the fees should be way lower (unless Brexit bites).

user1474361571 · 26/09/2016 13:48

Once we Brexit the fees in Germany would revert to non-EU rates. And remember that there is very little pastoral care in German universities - large groups of students in lectures, little coursework, few tutorials, sink or swim.

BikeRunSki · 26/09/2016 13:59

I am a geologist for exactly the reasons felascloak said. Did my A levels (pre AS levels) in 1989 - physics, maths and chemistry - used them all in my degree, and use large parts of my degree in my job pretty much everyday.

InformalRoman · 26/09/2016 14:02

German universities don't currently charge tuition fees to any students at the moment though, regardless of country of origin - you pay an admin fee of a couple of hundred euros a term for use of student facilities and that fee includes a travel card. It's popular with US students to study in Germany.

LittleHoHum · 26/09/2016 14:42

You could get into top 10 physics courses this year with ABB/BBB.

Please tell me this is true!

user1474361571 · 26/09/2016 15:01

You could get into top 10 physics courses this year with ABB/BBB.

Maybe I should have phrased this differently - obviously most of the top 10 physics courses were not accepting such grades, but below the very top universities physics was in Clearing at one or two grades below published offer. So this meant that departments which are ranked from 8-15 (i.e. very well regarded) were accepting ABB and even BBB.

LittleHoHum · 26/09/2016 15:09

Fantastic - thanks.

raspberryrippleicecream · 26/09/2016 15:52

I can confirm that Little Ho. DS offers were A* AA and AAA, he didn't need clearing but when we looked the day before at Clearing they were showing as AAB and ABB.

LittleHoHum · 26/09/2016 15:59

Brilliant news raspberryripple. Loving this information. Smile