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Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

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Original poster

Computer science - maths and further maths a levels?

75 replies

Ireallydontseewhy · 22/04/2016 08:14

So, i think i know what answer i'm expecting, but always good to get other people's experience. Dc is interested in computer programming - though only at gcse level so far! Am i right that if you want to do computer science at degree level you are really looking at taking maths and possibly even further maths, at a level? And not necessarily doing computer science a level?

OP posts:

Ricardian · 26/04/2016 18:00

CS is a hard subject at every level though. Low percentage of pupils obtain top grades at GCSE, A level and degree level.

Far more students get top grades in Latin than in Tourism, but that doesn't mean that Latin is easier than Tourism. It's that the courses have different demographics.

That said, in my RG university, CS has one of the highest rates of firsts, as it happens, which given our intake is even more impressive. We pour a lot of resources into teaching that other STEM departments don't (our first years, for example, are almost exclusively taught by professors and readers). But it is undeniable that there is a combination of poor teaching and badly advised students lower down the system (on both axes).

PointlessFriend · 26/04/2016 18:11

I don't think Comp Sci is necessarily something to avoid but it is something that should be researched carefully. My DS seems to love it.

Twowrongsdontmakearight · 27/04/2016 07:17

Just checked back on this thread - very interesting! DS is about to do GCSE Computing. In his mocks it was his only B. We thought it was because the teacher he had in Y9-10 focused on programming not the exam. Fingers crossed he can pull it up in time.

On a different note. We were lucky to get tours round Facebook, Google and Twitter last summer - obviously where DS wants to work. We asked whether Maths would be a better choice and the message back was to do your degree in a subject you love. Two out of three had Computer Science degrees. That's why DS chose to do the GCSE. We will think again after the comments on here re A Level / degree.

AtiaoftheJulii · 27/04/2016 16:03

Really interesting thread, thanks all. Ds is in y10 and currently wants to do computer science at uni, in a very y10/don't actually know what that entails fashion! I don't know anything about it, so it's good to start picking up information.

At the moment he is thinking probably maths, FM and computing for A level, but he will need a fourth too - I'd think physics would be the natural choice but he's not had the best teacher for y9 and 10 and so he's a bit anti physics! His other choice would be history, so it was really interesting to see Ricardian's comment. I guess he'd just have to make sure not having physics wouldn't rule out any maths courses if he decided to go straight maths instead. (Can't see him suddenly deciding to do anything else, it's been obvious that he'd do at least maths and FM a levels since he was in y7, lol)

hayita · 27/04/2016 16:59

I guess he'd just have to make sure not having physics wouldn't rule out any maths courses if he decided to go straight maths instead.

Ricardian's comment that physics is necessary to get into maths is misleading.

Physics is highly desirable for a maths course, since many UK maths departments contain a lot of theoretical physicists and courses hence contain a lot of applied maths/theoretical physics/mathematical biology/engineering maths etc.

Physics is not however necessary for most maths courses. Neither is further maths. The only courses which in practice insist on FM are Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, Warwick. (Even they allow for not having FM but these are very rare cases.) There is no maths course that insists on A level physics, but you will have less chance at getting into Oxbridge and Imperial maths without physics - some Cambridge colleges would in practice turn down applicants without physics unless they were truly remarkable (Olympiad medallists).

BTW it would definitely be a very bad strategy to go to interview for maths and say that you hate physics. If you do, expect to be asked about applied maths/physics parts of the course, and to be probed about whether you understand that a lot of the work done in maths departments is theoretical physics.

Physics at GCSE bears little relation to physics at A level which in turn really bears very little relation to university level physics. Not liking GCSE physics says very little about whether you will like university level physics (which is more closely related to school maths than to school physics).

Ricardian · 27/04/2016 17:27

Ricardian's comment that physics is necessary to get into maths is misleading.

I didn't mean to say it was. But re-reading, I said "mathematical sciences" which was unclear of me: I meant "the sciences that need maths" (ie, physics, and for practical purposes chemistry), but not maths itself.

FurryMint · 27/04/2016 17:31

Hayita I don't think Ricardian said that or implied it. I've reread the thread and can't see where you got that impression.

Happy to be corrected.

FurryMint · 27/04/2016 17:32

Oops, cross posted Ignore my last post.

hayita · 27/04/2016 17:44

Many maths departments nowadays call themselves "mathematical sciences" (to take into account that they do mathematical physics, math biology, engineering maths, statistics etc). "Mathematical sciences" does not usually mean physics, chemistry etc.That's why to me the comment looked misleading and Atia seems to have read it as physics may be needed for maths.

Ricardian · 27/04/2016 18:14

Many maths departments nowadays call themselves "mathematical sciences"

Ours doesn't. Again, my apologies for using an adjective that made it look like a noun phrase :-)

noblegiraffe · 27/04/2016 18:30

The only courses which in practice insist on FM are Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, Warwick.

Further maths may not be on the entry requirements for most university maths courses but that's more to do with unis needing student numbers, not to do with further maths not being a bloody good idea. A student who planned on doing maths at uni would be exceptionally foolish to not take further maths if the option was available.

hayita · 27/04/2016 18:58

Universities can also not insist on FM while schools and sixth form colleges continue not to offer it. I agree that students who want to do maths would be silly not to take FM if it is offered. If it is not offered self-studying FM modules (particularly complex numbers etc) is extremely beneficial.

noblegiraffe · 27/04/2016 19:03

If further maths isn't offered, the further maths support network can arrange tuition either online or at a study centre.

hayita · 27/04/2016 19:23

Indeed there is support available for FM.

On the other hand, it is important to bear in mind that many of those studying maths at university don't have FM. Even at top 20 universities maths courses have only approx half their maths students coming in with FM. Students with FM don't do better than those without after the first semester. Lower ranked universities have even fewer students with FM.

It bothers me when people suggest FM is essential for maths at university, as this immediately puts off a lot of students (particularly women) from applying for maths, when they might do very well at it.

I would also comment that maths at university has changed considerably relative to 20 years ago at all but the top two or three institutions. There are many more "soft" maths modules offered from the second year onwards (financial maths etc), even at top tier universities. Maths at university is accessible to students who can get As at A level, even if they aren't Olympiad candidates or self study FM with online support.

FM is essential for COWI (and perhaps UCL,..) but COWI correspondingly has far less diversity than other maths courses e.g. 20% women compared to the 40% women.

AtiaoftheJulii · 27/04/2016 20:43

To remove confusion, I wasn't thinking of Ricardian's comment, I was thinking about my possibly baseless speculation in a conversation with ds the other day

This is interesting though:
There is no maths course that insists on A level physics, but you will have less chance at getting into Oxbridge and Imperial maths without physics - some Cambridge colleges would in practice turn down applicants without physics unless they were truly remarkable (Olympiad medallists).

I haven't done any research - because he's in y10 and I'm not crazy, despite enjoying much idle chatter and speculation - but would this information be spelt out in college entry requirements, or is unsaid, but known to be A Thing by maths tutors?

hayita · 28/04/2016 07:14

It is listed on the Cambridge website which colleges prefer students to have physics.

cutefluffyunicorn · 03/06/2016 08:12

my ds is currently sitting his A levels. He has an offer to study Computer Science at Cambridge.(fingers crossed!)
He is doing Maths, Further Maths, Chemistry and Physics A levels. (well he has already done his Maths which he did a year early)
Maths has always been his thing though.
He is also sitting the STEP papers, although interestingly they are not part of his conditional offer from Cambridge, but were required for Imperial (where he also got an offer from)
He hasn't done Computer science at GCSE or A level(partly because his school didn't offer it). He has done LOTS in his own time though! (eg he has read a LOT of programming books, built his own chess engine etc)

cutefluffyunicorn · 03/06/2016 08:16

Just to add, my DS didnt come to it form a "I've always wanted to do a Computer Science degree" point, but rather he always wanted to do something mathematical and looked at Maths, Engineering and Computer Science and combinations of the above, and then narrowed it down to Computer Science, which he had always been very interested in as a hobby.

MarvinKMooney · 22/06/2016 18:48

I work in admissions for Computer Science (RG). What Ricardian says!!

alexbaileymarkit · 12/10/2016 16:01

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Pebbles574 · 13/10/2016 12:15

Can I ask the RG admissions folk on here what I should be doing NOW to help my Year 12 son. He wants to study Computer Science at one of the top UK universities so will be submitting his UCAS form in a year's time.
He has 11 GCSES (9A*/2A) and is doing A levels in Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Computer Science (OCR)
I'm worried because the school have only just started teaching A level CS and it's also a new teacher!

Is going on one of these taster courses like Headstart essential? Where do I find out about them?
What about CS/ science type events like Next Wired Generation etc?
Does he need to have demonstrated a lot of programming/designing etc in his own time?
What other sorts of things will Unis be looking for at this stage?

It's not my area at all, so I'm struggling a bit!

SecretSaffron · 13/10/2016 18:36

pebbles my ds has just gone to Cambridge to study computer science.He didn't go on any courses/taster sessions etc and obviously that didn't stand against him getting a place at Cambridge, (which was really competitive for cs places). He did maths, further Maths, chemistry and physics A levels. He also did an EPQ in some sort of mathematical subject (I read it but it was beyond me!!)
He DID do a lot of programming and reading about programming in his own time which he did talk about in he personal statements.I think that was helpful in demonstrating not only his knowledge but his passion for the subject.
DS had offers from York, Durham, Warwick and Imperial. He had Durham as his insurance. Imperial actually had harder conditions to his offer than Cambridge. York conditions were the lowest.(cant quite remember what - sorry!)
Good luck to your DS.

cdtaylornats · 13/10/2016 22:19

I would be more impressed by an applicant that knew less coding and more about testing, Github and version control.

Computer Science at University will teach the various programming methodologies and paradigms.

Things like Object Orientated programming, Agile, Functional Languages.

Hardware concepts, virtualisation, software/hardware interfaces.

Theory - program proving, algorithm analysis.

Systems - compiler theory, operating system theory, embedded systems.

OddBoots · 06/11/2016 12:08

Thank you for this thread, it has brought up some interesting points. It is such a shame that so many students need to narrow down to 3 subjects when often 4 would suit them better but the reality is that for many the actual grades would suffer if doing 4 subjects.

My ds is in Y13, he did Maths, FM, CS and Physics at AS and had to drop one, he dropped Physics as it was marginally he weakest subject. It is his dream to do Maths and CS with a year in industry at Sheffield, we are waiting to hear if he gets an offer, he is predicted A* for Maths and A for FM and CS so we are reasonably hopeful but it is pretty competitive.

LooseAtTheSeams · 08/11/2016 09:31

Also want to say thanks for this thread with some very knowledgable posters! For what it's worth, DS1 went to an open day for computer science at Cambridge earlier this year and really enjoyed it so I would definitely recommend it. He took away the message that maths is the most important A level to have but also that Cambridge like to see a non-maths A level in the mix if possible. Their approach is not so much to teach specific computer languages but to enable students to have the skill to work with any computer language.

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