Computer science - maths and further maths a levels?

[Ireallydontseewhy]

So, i think i know what answer i'm expecting, but always good to get other people's experience. Dc is interested in computer programming - though only at gcse level so far! Am i right that if you want to do computer science at degree level you are really looking at taking maths and possibly even further maths, at a level? And not necessarily doing computer science a level?

Game development is a niche world all of its own.

It's also, by and large, staggeringly badly paid and the staff are often on dubious self-employ/contract terms. Of the students doing industrial placements, the people working for dealing floors are paid - as placement students - enough to be on the fringes of higher-rate tax, while the people doing game design are lucky to get a third of that. Once they start work, the gulf is immense.

I think they are probably roping in any teachers who are enthusiastic about computers to teach it. I heard a sixth former complaining that their comp sci teacher didn't know Java, so I suspect they don't have a comp sci degree.

DH works in app development & web commerce... most his colleagues aren't university-educated, either.

It's also not the kind of thing you can in an emergency look for a tutor if the teaching isn't very good i'd imagine - not easy even for maths and science, but i would think comp sci tutors are a very rare breed.
Is this because all comp sci grads have so many other opportunities that they don't look into teaching - or because the lack of schools that teach it makes it an unattractive teaching career?

There's plenty of useful material on youtube, in lieu of a human tutor.

we must be incredibly lucky at our school - after a mass clear out of ICT teachers, we have a very enthusiastic lot of CS teachers led by someone whose doctorate (I think) was in AI. DD3 is very excited about GSCE CS next year, but I'm not convinced her maths/physics is necessarily up to A level.

More schools are now offering Computer Science at GCSE and A level. What would concern me about taking CS at A level though would be what is the quality of teaching like and would my child be able to achieve a high enough grade at this subject to be able to study this subject at degree level? You need to consider likely grades as well as whether an A level subject is relevant to further study.
Surely if a pupils/school is more likely to achieve the necessary grades in Physics and Maths, it may not be a great idea to take CS if the school doesn't have a good track record in this subject. Potentially I would be concerned that a pupil moving from CS A level to degree level could have to "unlearn" computing methods that were badly taught and re-learn how to do them properly at uni.
On the other hand surely some aptitude for programming is needed and it doesn't necessarily follow that everyone who is good at Maths can automatically be able to do this well? I can believe that good programmers tend to be very good at Maths but does this mean that the converse is true?

Potentially I would be concerned that a pupil moving from CS A level to degree level could have to "unlearn" computing methods that were badly taught and re-learn how to do them properly at uni.

We have no evidence that's true. This is hardly a new situation: plenty of, if not most, CS students of the 1980s and 1990s had the old Computer Studies qualifications, which had decent amounts of programming in them. The removal of any sort of programming from schools is a product of the last ten or fifteen years. Only in England would we take two good computing qualifications and say, in the 2000s, that no-one in the future will need to program computers so there's no point in teaching anything about it in schools.

It took Michael Gove (well, Dominic Cummings, whose fingerprints are all over it), to fix this.

I can believe that good programmers tend to be very good at Maths but does this mean that the converse is true?

There are plenty of reasons why this isn't remotely definitive, but the drop-out rate from degrees appears to be inversely proportional to the maths requirement. I've never met a mathematician (or physicist) who can't program, but obviously, I tend to hang out with mathematicians and physicists who can program.

Ds is considering computer science at university. At the moment his A level choices are CS, maths and a science, probably chemistry

He's good at maths but doesn't really enjoy it but loves coding and as he doesn't really enjoy anything else at school it would be a bit perverse to drop the one subject he shows any enthusiasm for ...

Ricardian
There are plenty of reasons why this isn't remotely definitive, but the drop-out rate from degrees appears to be inversely proportional to the maths requirement

Is this because the courses with less maths tend to be lower or mid tariff universities rather than because they have less maths? IYSWIM

Is this because the courses with less maths tend to be lower or mid tariff universities

Yes, that as well. But I'm comparing AAA universities in the RG. However, universities which accept AAA but have lower maths requirement accept, or accepted, BTEC distinctions as alternatives to AAA, whereas the places that demanded high-end maths either de facto or de jure didn't accept BTEC students. No-one publishes their drop-out rates broken down by entry qualifications, but (anecdotally) the single best predictor of dropping out is BTECs.

I bet Erdős couldn't programme. Notorious for being unable to even do his own cooking!

Ricardian. That sounds about right.
I've a DC doing maths and another doing Comp Sci and they've both been suprised at the high drop out rates on their courses. They are at decent Unis. Their theory for Math is that if you are reasonably bright and haven't a clue what to study you might choose Maths by default rather than because you are 'passionate' about it and with Comp Sci my DCs theory is because it's too math'sy despite Maths A'levels at A grade being a requirement . I've no idea if their theories are correct though.

Fortunately, they are both enjoying their courses. Thank goodness.

I bet Erdős couldn't programme

Do we all get to brag about our Erdős numbers now ?

I've a DC doing maths and another doing Comp Sci and they've both been suprised at the high drop out rates on their courses.

Computer Science has the highest drop out rate of any subject, even when you control for institution. 9.5% drop out in the first year, and whatever slice you take (by entry requirements) it's always either the worst or the second worst. Why is a very interesting question. I have hypotheses, but I don't have facts yet.

Is the high drop out because students don't understand what the courses entail?
Although some will have studied CS at A'levels the majority won't have?

Computer Science has the highest drop out rate of any subject

I was talking to one of the teachers at my school who teaches Comp Sci GCSE and she was really annoyed that most of the kids who signed up seemed to think it would turn them all into hackers.

Both of those.

CS has very high rates of first in family, which is (sadly) a pretty good predictor of dropping out. Oxford and Cambridge have the lowest drop-out rates of all universities (for all subjects, pretty much) and they have amongst the lowest rates of first in family (and proxies for it, like parental income). The reasons both why CS has high rates of first in family, and why first in family is a good predictor of dropping out, are interesting and not I think well understood.

140 started my first year, approx 80 made it to finals - only 5 got a first.

My hypothesis: it's really fucking hard going - both in terms of academic stretch and time; none of this 2 lectures a week nonsense, it's tough-going - 5 days a week 9-5 and no reading weeks. A large portion dropped out due to MH issues - I'll say no more.

Why so few firsts? Well, perhaps of an era when they weren't dished out like sweeties - but also, don't ask logical engineers to dish out fuzzy logic grades.

Don't assume you'll get a headstart course - they had 1250 too many applicants this year and turned down students who applied in the first week and had "perfect" GCSE grades.

My DCs attended a few Headstart courses and found them to be brilliant. It used to be first come first served (which worked well for us but they have, quite rightly, changed it. My youngest attended a residential Headstart course two years ago and was that almost every other DC was from a private or top grammar school.

I don't think they publish their selection criteria though

I think by "first in family" ricardian means the first member of the family to go to university not the number of first class degrees!

I understand that catslife - I was just giving people an indication of how hard it is to achieve a first in such a subject in an age where every man and his dog get's a first or upper second.

I know Hildur my OH has a degree in Computer Science. Looks as if he did well to make it to the end of the course and that CS graduates shouldn't feel bad about not having a first or 2i.
We did consider this subject for dd, but DH asked a question that the teacher (and Head of Department) couldn't answer, which didn't inspire confidence and published results for CS are lower than other subjects by a long way.
CS is a hard subject at every level though. Low percentage of pupils obtain top grades at GCSE, A level and degree level.

Thanks again all - this has been such a useful thread, though maybe not quite how i was expecting!

It does sound as though, unless you are really really keen, comp sci is something to avoid at both a level and degree (and possibly also gcse judging by last post, but oh well, too late now and dc is enjoying it for the moment!). Not the kind of info i'd picked up elsewhere.