Clearing 2015

[Sadusername]

Does anyone have a link to courses that were available in clearing last year. Would be reassuring to see what was available. And may be available future years. Interested in law.

[Molio]

howabout what on earth uni did you go to that asked for 'multiple' 5000 word essays a week!!!! And eight subjects in your first year!!!! Please name it so others can avoid it!!!!

[Sadusername]

Molio- you are right this is Yr 12. Aiming high and getting the grades is the right step. If I sound a bit doubtful grade wise, it's because dd has only had an academic focus for the past year and while on a upward trajectory (the harder she works, the better she seems to be doing) i can't say with an confidence she will achieve A*AA.so this is why I am asking about clearing. I have been advising her against 5 aspirational. BUt she seems to thinks that even with the required grades you could get an offer from one requiring top grades and not another with the same requirements!
howabout- that's sounds a massive workload.
Thanks bojo for detailed description of career path, obviously even place at a top university not a guarantee of anything.
Having said that, she has already spent quite a few years pursuing another passion, and the odds of that leading to a job, never mind a reasonably paid one, were probably lower.

[Sadusername]

Today' s Guardian.
www.theguardian.com/law/2016/feb/23/qualifying-barrister-may-cost-new-students-127000

[Molio]

The most absurd cost in all this is for the BPTC. I fail to see how the providers in London can justify their cost but I know the cost is coming under close scrutiny, which is good. Bojo isn't quite correct that the top scholarships never cover more than the cost of the BPTC however - DD had to pay c.18k to 19k so had about £4k over from her scholarships to put towards living expenses.

[RhodaBull]

I have two examples. Dn is about to leave (top) university with a Law degree and in spite of numerous interviews and some stellar (parental friends) work placements, she has not secured anything.

A young woman I know who did A Levels in very un-MN subjects including (horror of horrors!) Law and then went to an ex-poly is at a magic circle firm. Go figure.

[bojorojo]

A single scholarship is rarely at £18,000 though, Molio. A handful are. Never, was not quite right, I agree. However, few students manage two scholarships and lots are £10,000 or below.

I think Rhoda, it really depends what the Magic Circle firm is looking for. Some look more widely and favourably upon ex-polys than many Barristers' Sets! Some do not look at what school or university you went to. The ex-poly is not the only part of her CV that they will be looking at. She has obviously ticked their boxes and that can cover a whole raft of factors, not just education. They may also be aware that your DN did not actually compete to obtain the work experience. Just a bit too stellar maybe? The peope who are motivated to get on and not rely on parents (plenty have no parents or relatives with influence) or friends are often very good applicants. They successfully seek placements, internships and volunteering opportunities and are not just given work experience on a plate. If she did nothing off her own back, then maybe that caused the rejections?

[Molio]

Rhoda I'm not sure one can figure out anything in particular from those examples except that the weak link appears to be the DN relying on nepotistic placements to boost her CV, which doesn't reflect fantastically well tbf. If she's had numerous interviews then clearly she hasn't convinced the interviewers that she's learned very much from these stellar placements either, so it sounds like one big waste of time for all concerned.

As a counter: DD1 did regular facilitating subjects at school and left her (top) university with a law degree having secured vac schemes at magic circle firms in her second year and with a training contract in place at one of them before her third year began. She completed that successfully, and was offered an associate's job. The firm paid for her LPC plus full living expenses then paid handsomely for the the two years of her training contract. I have to say that those on her LPC and at the firm were overwhelmingly from Oxford or Cambridge, but they were also mostly made of stern stuff - they needed to be given the type of work and the hours involved.

[Molio]

Cross post with bojo! Completely agree.

[Molio]

Hers wasn't the top scholarship from the Inn bojo although of course it was massively welcome. Each Inn has a good ish number of scholarships around the £20k mark. I don't know why multiple scholarships wouldn't be usual since the second was from the BPTC provider so an entirely separate source.

[howabout]

Molio I have long suspected that my alma mater may only be for those with masochistic tendencies. Perhaps they have slackened off in recent times as I am quite old, but I very much doubt it.

I was reading the discussion on grade inflation on the would you be a doctor thread. My old grades would get me into medical school today.

I will bow out now as the Scottish Legal profession is indeed a law unto itself.

[cruusshed]

a big problem has been the proliferation of establishments offering the professional qualifications. Back in ye oldene dayes there were only about 4 or 5 places you could do solicitors finals and one bar school. This in itself acted as a filter. Now there are numerous places happily taking students' cash with no regard at all to employment prospects.

Is this not what the Unis are doing for undergraduate law degrees as well? Massively popular course, relatively cheap to run - they are happy to take £27k off teenagers and dont really care where they end up after.

Is the employment crisis "just" a case of supply and demand? Have the number of jobs and training contracts in law stayed the same over the years but is it just that Unis are selling more courses? Or has the profession rapidly contracted (legal aid, out-sourcing to emerging markets?) over all.

If you are not aiming for the bar or magic circle what are employment prospects?

[DeoGratias]

I agree with Molio in that respect (and both my daughters and I are solicitors). One of mine was almost the only non Oxbridge person hired as a trainee in her year (although she is very good so I am not surprised). My daughter rightly picked ancient history at Bristol (3 hours lectures a week or some other doss and easier to get into than law although I suspect she would have got in to read law as most of all her grades GCSE, AS, A were As. I thnk that was a wise choice of hers and she enjoyed her degree. Her law firm paid her GDL and LPC fees and an allowance of £7k a year and paid her well when trading just below and then at £40k and very well now.

What people need to realise is that toilet paper degrees from London Met say are not going to get you any good jobs unless you have stellar A level results and all kinds of other things like good luck working for you. Try to get in a top 5 or top 7 university and it becomes easier (and even in my day it was hard to get into law - my head tried to put me off as we had too many solicitors).

It has laways been hard to get into law because the profession (same with medicine ) wants to hire the very very few people who are the brightest there are as you don't want a surgeon cutting you up or barrister representing you in court who is not very clever. So in a sense it's wonderful that so few people make it few - it protects the public and long may that stay.

[homebythesea]

Yes there are more places offering law degrees because there are more "universities". Us of a certain age will know that the ex Poly's who now offer degrees of all kinds are not necessarily cut all of the same cloth. So a law degree may actually be fairly worthless in respect of pursuing a career in law depending where it's from (that's not to decry those studying law at a "new" university, it's just being realistic).

And yes the legal profession has contracted particularly because of cuts in legal aid

[DeoGratias]

Although it is still double the size of my day when I think we had about 60,000 solicitors and now have 120,000!

[bojorojo]

I think you will find, Molio, that some BPTC providers will not pay the full value of their scholarships to those who already have a sizeable scholarship from an Inn. They reduce the amount substantially or say you can have the honorary title.

[Molio]

Yes bojo they cut two thousand from the scholarship I think.