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Clearing 2015

41 replies

Sadusername · 19/02/2016 19:31

Does anyone have a link to courses that were available in clearing last year. Would be reassuring to see what was available. And may be available future years. Interested in law.

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Molio · 23/02/2016 22:34

Yes bojo they cut two thousand from the scholarship I think.

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bojorojo · 23/02/2016 21:23

I think you will find, Molio, that some BPTC providers will not pay the full value of their scholarships to those who already have a sizeable scholarship from an Inn. They reduce the amount substantially or say you can have the honorary title.

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DeoGratias · 23/02/2016 17:55

Although it is still double the size of my day when I think we had about 60,000 solicitors and now have 120,000!

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homebythesea · 23/02/2016 16:39

Yes there are more places offering law degrees because there are more "universities". Us of a certain age will know that the ex Poly's who now offer degrees of all kinds are not necessarily cut all of the same cloth. So a law degree may actually be fairly worthless in respect of pursuing a career in law depending where it's from (that's not to decry those studying law at a "new" university, it's just being realistic).

And yes the legal profession has contracted particularly because of cuts in legal aid

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DeoGratias · 23/02/2016 16:36

I agree with Molio in that respect (and both my daughters and I are solicitors). One of mine was almost the only non Oxbridge person hired as a trainee in her year (although she is very good so I am not surprised). My daughter rightly picked ancient history at Bristol (3 hours lectures a week or some other doss and easier to get into than law although I suspect she would have got in to read law as most of all her grades GCSE, AS, A were As. I thnk that was a wise choice of hers and she enjoyed her degree. Her law firm paid her GDL and LPC fees and an allowance of £7k a year and paid her well when trading just below and then at £40k and very well now.

What people need to realise is that toilet paper degrees from London Met say are not going to get you any good jobs unless you have stellar A level results and all kinds of other things like good luck working for you. Try to get in a top 5 or top 7 university and it becomes easier (and even in my day it was hard to get into law - my head tried to put me off as we had too many solicitors).

It has laways been hard to get into law because the profession (same with medicine ) wants to hire the very very few people who are the brightest there are as you don't want a surgeon cutting you up or barrister representing you in court who is not very clever. So in a sense it's wonderful that so few people make it few - it protects the public and long may that stay.

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cruusshed · 23/02/2016 16:09

a big problem has been the proliferation of establishments offering the professional qualifications. Back in ye oldene dayes there were only about 4 or 5 places you could do solicitors finals and one bar school. This in itself acted as a filter. Now there are numerous places happily taking students' cash with no regard at all to employment prospects.

Is this not what the Unis are doing for undergraduate law degrees as well? Massively popular course, relatively cheap to run - they are happy to take £27k off teenagers and dont really care where they end up after.

Is the employment crisis "just" a case of supply and demand? Have the number of jobs and training contracts in law stayed the same over the years but is it just that Unis are selling more courses? Or has the profession rapidly contracted (legal aid, out-sourcing to emerging markets?) over all.

If you are not aiming for the bar or magic circle what are employment prospects?

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howabout · 23/02/2016 15:21

Molio I have long suspected that my alma mater may only be for those with masochistic tendencies. Perhaps they have slackened off in recent times as I am quite old, but I very much doubt it.

I was reading the discussion on grade inflation on the would you be a doctor thread. My old grades would get me into medical school today.

I will bow out now as the Scottish Legal profession is indeed a law unto itself.

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Molio · 23/02/2016 15:11

Hers wasn't the top scholarship from the Inn bojo although of course it was massively welcome. Each Inn has a good ish number of scholarships around the £20k mark. I don't know why multiple scholarships wouldn't be usual since the second was from the BPTC provider so an entirely separate source.

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Molio · 23/02/2016 15:07

Cross post with bojo! Completely agree.

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Molio · 23/02/2016 15:06

Rhoda I'm not sure one can figure out anything in particular from those examples except that the weak link appears to be the DN relying on nepotistic placements to boost her CV, which doesn't reflect fantastically well tbf. If she's had numerous interviews then clearly she hasn't convinced the interviewers that she's learned very much from these stellar placements either, so it sounds like one big waste of time for all concerned.

As a counter: DD1 did regular facilitating subjects at school and left her (top) university with a law degree having secured vac schemes at magic circle firms in her second year and with a training contract in place at one of them before her third year began. She completed that successfully, and was offered an associate's job. The firm paid for her LPC plus full living expenses then paid handsomely for the the two years of her training contract. I have to say that those on her LPC and at the firm were overwhelmingly from Oxford or Cambridge, but they were also mostly made of stern stuff - they needed to be given the type of work and the hours involved.

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bojorojo · 23/02/2016 14:57

A single scholarship is rarely at £18,000 though, Molio. A handful are. Never, was not quite right, I agree. However, few students manage two scholarships and lots are £10,000 or below.

I think Rhoda, it really depends what the Magic Circle firm is looking for. Some look more widely and favourably upon ex-polys than many Barristers' Sets! Some do not look at what school or university you went to. The ex-poly is not the only part of her CV that they will be looking at. She has obviously ticked their boxes and that can cover a whole raft of factors, not just education. They may also be aware that your DN did not actually compete to obtain the work experience. Just a bit too stellar maybe? The peope who are motivated to get on and not rely on parents (plenty have no parents or relatives with influence) or friends are often very good applicants. They successfully seek placements, internships and volunteering opportunities and are not just given work experience on a plate. If she did nothing off her own back, then maybe that caused the rejections?

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RhodaBull · 23/02/2016 14:33

I have two examples. Dn is about to leave (top) university with a Law degree and in spite of numerous interviews and some stellar (parental friends) work placements, she has not secured anything.

A young woman I know who did A Levels in very un-MN subjects including (horror of horrors!) Law and then went to an ex-poly is at a magic circle firm. Go figure.

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Molio · 23/02/2016 14:28

The most absurd cost in all this is for the BPTC. I fail to see how the providers in London can justify their cost but I know the cost is coming under close scrutiny, which is good. Bojo isn't quite correct that the top scholarships never cover more than the cost of the BPTC however - DD had to pay c.18k to 19k so had about £4k over from her scholarships to put towards living expenses.

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Sadusername · 23/02/2016 14:08
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Sadusername · 23/02/2016 13:57

Molio- you are right this is Yr 12. Aiming high and getting the grades is the right step. If I sound a bit doubtful grade wise, it's because dd has only had an academic focus for the past year and while on a upward trajectory (the harder she works, the better she seems to be doing) i can't say with an confidence she will achieve A*AA.so this is why I am asking about clearing. I have been advising her against 5 aspirational. BUt she seems to thinks that even with the required grades you could get an offer from one requiring top grades and not another with the same requirements!
howabout- that's sounds a massive workload.
Thanks bojo for detailed description of career path, obviously even place at a top university not a guarantee of anything.
Having said that, she has already spent quite a few years pursuing another passion, and the odds of that leading to a job, never mind a reasonably paid one, were probably lower.

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Molio · 23/02/2016 13:15

howabout what on earth uni did you go to that asked for 'multiple' 5000 word essays a week!!!! And eight subjects in your first year!!!! Please name it so others can avoid it!!!!

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homebythesea · 23/02/2016 13:13

a big problem has been the proliferation of establishments offering the professional qualifications. Back in ye oldene dayes there were only about 4 or 5 places you could do solicitors finals and one bar school. This in itself acted as a filter. Now there are numerous places happily taking students' cash with no regard at all to employment prospects.

Going into a company like Nissan is not possible unless they are licensed to provide the correct training which would be unusual. Normal practice is to go into a firm and do at least 3 different "seats" in a variety of disciplines whilst doing CPD learning before qualifying as a solicitor. At that point you could go in house.

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howabout · 23/02/2016 13:06

I have a Law Degree. I just scanned through the thread looking at all the talk about the competitiveness of the job market which is all true. However I think there is an issue even before that. My Law Degree was extremely demanding in terms of course load with multiple 5,000 word essays every week. I had 8 subjects in year 1, all with related exams. If someone is at all struggling to get the entry grades, especially in verbal reasoning subjects, I think they will struggle to keep up with the course.

OTOH I have never been a lawyer and my degree was extremely marketable for lots of other graduate programmes. I definitely recommend it. I am a chartered accountant.

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bojorojo · 23/02/2016 12:55

The barrister in the article is self-employed. Barristers who work in a Chambers are self employed. If you work for the Crown Prosecution service, you are employed and get all the benefits of that.

Members of a Chambers have common expenses, which she listed, where they pool money to cover the office expenses. They pay their own travel and this can be a huge expense.

After doing a Law degree or the GDL, an aspiring barrister will then do the Barristers' Professional Training course at a recognised provider. Although then doing an MA or volunteering for a year is common before starting the BPTC. If a student has done the GDL, then the BPTC comes after that, or after doing an MA. You get the picture! The BPTC can be completed at Northumbria, Manchester, Bristol, Birmingham, Cardiff, Leeds, Nottingham and 3 Universities in London. The cost will be £20,000 plus in London next year for this course but less in the provinces. You join an Inn of Court as a student and hopefully get a scholarship from them to help pay the fees. You also have to pay living expenses and the scholarships are never more than the cost of the course.

If a young person can get a pupillage (training year with a Chambers which follows successful completion of the BPTC) before the student starts the BPTC, you can draw down on the sum of money that goes with the pupillage. However at a criminal chambers, it may be £12,000 so this will only cover the pupillage year and these chambers may not recruit before the BPTC anyway. For a top chambers, their pupillage award of £50,000-£65,000 can be partly spent on the BPTC year and the pupillage year. The problem is that few get these amounts . £12,000-£30,000 is more common. This money is paid to the pupil by the Barristers in the Chambers. It is a reflection of what they earn and the status of the Chambers and the type of person they wish to recruit. Some areas of law are more lucrative than others. Some Chambers never recruit pupils at all.

Criminal Barristers, at the lower end, are paid little and her account sounds accurate to me. It is interesting that, on another thread, Doctors think they are hard done by. I think people do think Barristers do a good job but it has to be treated as a way of life. There are far better hourly rates in commercial areas of practice but they are the most difficult to secure.

The comment about Northumbria was from the "Legal Cheek" website and it was their comments on "The BPTC Providers with the Highest Chance of Pupilage". The figures were from the Bar Standards Board. However, Northumbria has a huge proportion (80% in 2015) of overseas students on the course who may not be looking for pupillage in this country. The Bar Barometer published by the Bar Standards Board also makes interesting reading, although not very up to date.

Sorry to have rambled on.

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Molio · 23/02/2016 12:06

Sadusername the criminal bar doesn't pay well. The writer of the article is in chambers but she's self-employed, that's standard.

There's nothing odd at all about being attracted to the idea of law as an academic discipline. I enjoyed my law degree hugely. Both my DDs read law and while a lot of their friends did the conversion course from another subject their choice has had the merit of saving a further year of very high fees. It sound to me as though your DD is inclined towards the Bar, since you seem to be talking more about that than solicitors firms. If it cheers you up, my DD won two scholarships with a combined value of £23k for the Bar course, one of £20k from her Inn and an advocacy scholarship of £3k from her BPTC provider. That's a massive dent in the cost of training.

I think your DD should aim for the best place she possibly can, and consider putting down five aspirational choices on her UCAS form (bearing in mind we're moving into uncharted territory with the linear A2s, unis as well as applicants, so there may be a lot of flexibility on results day 2017). Once there she should get stuck into lots of extra curricular legal stuff - the stuff I mentioned earlier. She's got plenty of time, she just needs to make the most of it!

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Sadusername · 23/02/2016 11:22

Sorry this is the blogI meant to link to
50shadesofaffray.wordpress.com
Though of course I don't quite understand why a barrister is out of pocket?! Does this mean she is not linked to chambers?
Where did you get your figures re Northumbria BPTC? A bit discouraging, but I am continuing this thread out of interest as much as anything else. Year 12 is too soon, she needs to get through A levels yet!

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Sadusername · 23/02/2016 11:13

You are right bojo, just momentary panic/terror on my dd's behalf. It is just a normal part of a young persons life now I guess. As long as it isn't an ongoing blight on their day to day lives. I haven't particularly encouraged her to consider another course first as I feel such foreboding as how we could cover the extra years training. It all feels a bit insurmountable. As weirdly she seems to like law as a subject.

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Sadusername · 23/02/2016 11:07

Re the fees, you are right of course, it is just a part of our young people's landscape. It. Is just when I see those figures. As for a depressing read, try this article. But does it mean she is not in chambers?

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bojorojo · 23/02/2016 10:45

By the way, student loans should never be a barrier. More people than ever are going to university, so going to the best university you can is more imortant than the loans. The rate of paying back is relatively low and manageable. Lots of students (I think they are saying 50%) will not pay anything back at all! Most people seem to think it is worth it but be really clear about the course and the university.

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bojorojo · 23/02/2016 10:39

Just to add to the doom, Northumbia University's BPTC course had no success AT ALL in getting anyone into Pupillage on the latest figures for 2013. The vast majority of pupillages are in London. I do have a friend whose grandaughter is doing a Law degree at Bournemouth. Pretty low down the league tables. However, they do a year out in a placement. She is at Nissan and has a car for the year. Lots of companies of this size run legal departments. This could be a better way forward for some Law students so do not necessarily give up, but be savvy about what the course looks like if your DD is not top university material.

You also need to remember that the pupillage awards for barrister training can be as low as £12,000 pa in London. Therefore you are paying them - effectively - unless you live at home in London! The top sets' awards are much higher (£65,000 plus) of course, but some sets only recruit from Oxbridge, as you have found. Specialisms such as Planning and Construction lawyers are in demand too. It is a real skill to get the experience, qualifications and develop the personal qualities needed at the highest level. People who work in family law have different skills from the people working in chancery for example. There are also scholarships available for training that are worth a big proportion of the fees and family circumstances are taken into account for some of them.

Also, there is no need to do Law at university at all to be a lawyer. She could do what she is good at (probably not "Media Studies" type degree though) and convert to Law via the GDL after her undergrad degree. This means she has longer to think about what she wants to do, develop other skills, and may decide she can get a good job, and one that she loves, with her first degree anyway. Doors are never closed - just pitch in at the right level!

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