Personal statements- Sutton Trust study indicates teachers may be letting applicants dosn

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Sutton Trust study here
www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Making-a-Statement-FINAL.pdf

They found that teachers in some state schools are not properly aware of what is required in a personal statement to ensure applicants are in the best position to be considered by top universities. Makes interesting reading.

Oh and I should add that both DC wrote or phoned many medics to find work experience- no nepotism involved. They probably wrote at least 20 or so letters each.

I thought the ST information was definitely not blaming the student! It looked at the teacher's comments and then the comments from the university to highlight the mis-match. It demonstrated to me that it was not just about what experience the potential student had, but what they learned from it and how they wrote about it to tell the university why it informed their choice of subject. (Although experience of medicine in Albania was a bit unattainable for the ordinary student!) Therefore if the right-hand column is bland, and this is what most 17 year olds would write, the Sutton Trust is saying the teachers should know better than to think that is acceptable to the best universities. In independent schools, and no doubt top state schools, the teachers do ask to see the draft PSs. All teachers advising young people should know what a good PS looks like.

There have been lots of comments on this site in the past where posters say universities do not even read them! This is clearly wrong. If an otherwise good candidate cannot write a good PS because they have not had suitable advice, then that is unfair. The ST also suggests a remedy! On the day when the number of black student admissions to Oxford has been exposed as so low, surely we can help the students who are bright but just need the right advice? Just putting on a PS what the average 6th former would put is not good enough and teachers should advise, especially if a parent is unable to!

Is my maths really terrible? By my reckoning , Ox took 10% Afro-Carribean applicants. What proportion of the UK population is Afro-Carribean?

That's a slightly tricky question horsemad. The headline figure would be 3% Black, or 5% when you include mixed race Black/Other. But that's misleading because the black population skews much younger than the white one so you'd expect a higher share of 17/18/19 year olds starting university to be black. Also it's very possible that a disproportionate share of that 10% are overseas students, so the local black population is underrepresented. So you'd need to know two additional data points before you could work out whether the numbers are concerning.

many universities simply skim personal statements. One medical school told us they put little value on them because they have rarely been written by the students.

I once saw a personal statement that included something more impressive than medicine in Albania and immediately assumed spoon fed rich kid. In fact a disadvantaged young person had help and support from people who were very impressed by their ability. A better school would have encouraged them to bring that out in the personal statement or explained in the reference how the student had overcome adversity.

Memory is getting faint now but I suspect my child said something about short terms suiting them because they liked a fast pace. If properly presented that certainly doesn't put Cambridge off.

This year I heard (from someone who gave them a mock interview in which they did quite well) of a very able black candidate who didn't get a place at Oxford. They ticked all the right boxes academically so were interviewed but then turned down. Oxford need a very bright spotlight on their admissions and a cut in their funding until they agree to it.

There are organizations which allow pupils to work in hospitals in Tanzania etc in between gcses and A levels. In the same way that teens raise money for World Challenge they can raise money to go on these trips. I'd expect a trip to Albania to be fairly cheap, no long flight, cheap accommodation.

"Has anyone had a 6th-former observe them giving birth? I'm surprised if so!!"

In this country, yes it would be surprising. As that student did it during voluntary work overseas, no no surprising at all.

"& Sutton Trust is there to help disadvantaged kids, not offspring of Yummy Mummies like us...."

Very true.

"Oxford need a very bright spotlight on their admissions and a cut in their funding until they agree to it."

They probably have at least 5 others who are very able and who 'tick all the right boxes' per place. Some will interview better than others.

Liike Laura Spence? Even when championing her, Gordon Brown was unable to say that any of those who did secure places were in any way of a lesser calibre.

I don't see how it would be fair to give extra points for experience abroad. Because the value added is unclear, due to support (£££) & opportunities that 16-17yos cannot mostly make for themselves it reflects family background more than initiative, and ours is not an international development course.

The NHS is busy poaching professionals from rest of the world; too much interest in travel could even indicate a candidate wasn't going to stick around to make the NHS investment worthwhile. (Not that we mark for that, but maybe somewhere else in the system it could be noted).

I was surprised to read that grammar school pupils had a lower success rate is applying to Oxbridge than Independent schools.
if admissions were fair then that would not be the case.Although I suspect independent schools and their pupils apply for less popular courses because they are more interested in getting to Oxbridge than the course itself.

I am not particularly surprised by the grammar school figure. Not all grammar schools are the same and many in my area would not have huge numbers who aspire to Oxbridge. They seem to be much more about Russell Group or thinking it is good idea to go to Bournemouth because it has a beach (as chosen by my friend's grandaughter for a law degree). There are also plenty who could go with the right nurturing but are not persuaded to go for all sorts of reasons.

Family ties to Oxbridge are strong in the independent sector and Oxbridge is expected. Time and time again I have seen young people get in who belong to a dynasy of Oxbridge educated people but more worthy ones from more ordinary families do not. In my own mind I tend to feel that parents and grandparents who have been to Oxbridge counts for a lot. Some names are just "known".

Regarding World Challenge, this is very much a middle class set up. Young people who attend schools which are not clued up regarding how to write a good personal statement will not be the type of schools participating in world challenge! There is a massive gap between the advice on offer to children at Marlborough and children at requires improvement comprehensive where no-one gets to a Russell Group university! No-one should assume that all young people have heard of world challenge or get the chance to participate in it. Very often it is young people who already have every advantage that go, not necessarily the ones that need to go. They also are far better placed to raise the money. If you live in an area where the school fete in total barely makes £500, how on earth are you going to raise the thousands you need for world challenge?

Also, whilst I am on the subject: I have noticed that schools that link up with local universities to "spread the word" about the advantages of going to university, then seem to think that this university is the answer to all the needs of all the children. A young person I know was led to believe that nursing at the local ex poly was what could be aspired to despite doing well enough, academically, to consider being a doctor. I can guarantee this young person will not be given the best advice on how to make the most of themselves and almost certainly will not realise the importance of work experience should a career as a doctor be pursued. Her parents are somewhat laid back (cream rises) and the school rarely sees a high flying child. The challenge is how to reach these types children to ensure they make properly informed choices and that the advice they receive is as good as the advice at Eton! Sadly, cream does not automatically rise!

Pure speculation here....indie pupils applying for less popular couses because they are more interested in getting into Oxbridge than the course itself?
How many state schools teach Latin and Greek? Sadly, not enough for many DCs to have enough interest to discover that one can apply for Classics without it. MFL provision in our, supposedly, excellent comp is really poor (DN's French teacher went on the sick 3 months before A levels and the school couldn't/didn't hire another). Many state schools don't offer FM or even sciences taught by actual science graduates. My DD went to a teaching conference and met a biology teacher who had a degree in PE and was delivering A level curriculum by swotting up on the relevant text book chapter the night before teaching it. These people are checking Personal Statements?!!
As for Grammars, our local uber-selective has problems filling humanities 6th form places because the parents push their DDs into subjects like medicine and engineering where they will get 'jobs'. Maybe it is a luxury for the privileged few but, I think the value of an education at a tippity-top uni is in learning how to think. That can be done in an obscure, non-vocational subject that broadens a DC's intellectual horizons. But only if they are offered the opportunity to discover that it exists.

This year I heard (from someone who gave them a mock interview in which they did quite well) of a very able black candidate who didn't get a place at Oxford. They ticked all the right boxes academically so were interviewed but then turned down. Oxford need a very bright spotlight on their admissions and a cut in their funding until they agree to it.

So if the very able black candidate did significantly worse in interviews and admissions tests than other candidates, including white or other minority candidates from deprived backgrounds, should they still get a place just because they are black? Just because your acquaintance thought they did quite well in a mock interview, does this really mean that they deserved a place?

I have also given mock interviews to candidates who did well and who didn't end up getting places: with 5 or so applications for every place, it's inevitable that strong applicants are going to be turned down.

I was surprised to read that grammar school pupils had a lower success rate is applying to Oxbridge than Independent schools. if admissions were fair then that would not be the case.

Why? Grammar schools are often not good at judging who to put forward to Oxbridge: I have seen many applications which are really not competitive and which don't make the first cut. There is also the elephant in the room: students with the same (top) A level grades don't perform the same in higher level assessment tests. Sadly many state schools don't push their brightest students to have a deep and broad enough understanding of their subjects. It's very hard to correct for this in admissions i.e. to take into account that candidates are working at a lower level because they haven't taught deeply enough.

I have no problems with top universities being put into the spotlight about admissions procedures, but one has to look very carefully and deeply into what is going on, rather than rushing to superficial judgements. (The study quoted in the first post is pretty much irrelevant as personal statements won't be a very big factor in almost all university courses in getting interviews/offers.)

Lots of universities do not interview but Oxbridge do and they view personal statements as important. The type of statements highlighted by the report will also matter a great deal for medicine and vet science. Not all courses think personal statements are irrelevant!

You also have to remember that this is the Sutton Trust. They support students who should be aiming for the top, but do not have the necessary information and supoort to get there. They are not just looking at standard RG universities. What is wrong with students being advised to write the best personal statment they can? It is a great skill in life.

I agree with horsemadmom. The chance of getting on an MFL degree at Oxford is about 33%. The chance of medicine, I think, is about 10% and PPE is similar. Definitely not 1:5! One suspects other less widely taught subjects would also be around 33% (if not better) but I have not checked recently. Of course students who are achieving highly at 2 MFL give Oxbridge a go. Why not? Less competition and a greater chance of success than going for Law!

I also agree with the rush to STEM subjects. Oxford now want AAA for Engineering. City jobs are the goal for many with STEM degrees.

Grammar schools are often not good at judging who to put forward to Oxbridge

Surely Schools don't put students forward. Kids have a free choice where to apply in the state sector (is it different in Independents?)
My DCs (state grammar) school have a self-selecting Oxbridge cohort which is pretty consistently 50% sucessful.This has mmade me think, maybe the school ought to be encouraging more to apply.

disquitiones what is your take on the sciences having a higher proportion of state school pupils than the arts.

I think it is clear from many threads on this board that schools/sixth form colleges do indeed play a big role in suggesting kids apply. I see a lot of Oxbridge applications from state schools in which the applicants might just about meet the minimum grade requirements (i.e. those of typical offers) but the latter are far below the average grades obtained by those who get in. Many of these have been encouraged to apply by their schools although of course the decision is made by the pupil.

For example, if a typical A level offer is one A star and two As then the grade predictions and UMS suggest the candidate might indeed just about get these, but (for physics sciences and engineering) a successful applicant will usually have 3+ A stars and much higher AS UMS.

I also find slightly surprising that some grammar schools don't do more research and so e.g. students apply for very over-subscribed courses or niche combinations of subjects (with lower success rates) or students apply for courses for which their subject choices are not ideal. For example, a student with double maths and physics is a poor candidate for Nat Sci in Cambridge (no chemistry) but might be a much better candidate for Physics in Oxford - grammar schools with a high achieving cohort should know facts like this, which haven't changed for decades, but it seems some don't.

On why there are more state educated scientists at Oxbridge - the usual explanation is that these subjects benefit less from extra and co curricular support. E.g. the ability to take more trips abroad clearly helps MFL and the ability to study more literature, philosophy etc in co curricular studies clearly helps with humanities.

grammar schools with a high achieving cohort should know facts like this, which haven't changed for decades, but it seems some don't

State schools don't always have much in the way of budget or staff time for university guidance. Independent schools often have massive university guidance departments with subject specialists.

But if they have a cohort of 10+ Oxbridge candidates per year (as a grammar might well do) they can at least have a meeting and talk through some of these factors with them, then get the candidates to do their own research.

Bear in mind also that grammar schools may well have Oxbridge educated staff or staff educated at "top" universities. I have seen very poor application decisions made by kids from super-selective London grammars which for sure do have Oxbridge educated staff (and many Oxbridge educated parents). One can't just blame it all on lack of resources.

There is a very considerable resource gap in university guidance between grammar schools and good independents. And richer families can also spend more money on university visits etc.

I also find that applicants and parents are very confused by published typical offers. Most have little grasp that most successful applicants will have grades significantly in excess of these.

I was surprised to read that grammar school pupils had a lower success rate is applying to Oxbridge than Independent schools

It is surprising for Cambridge at least as the admission statistics for the most recent (published) cycle show that the success rate for Indiependent and Grammar School applicants to be identical.

www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/undergrad_admissions_statistics_2014_cycle.pdf

Final column of table 1.1

Ah so that's interesting Boys3!
what that seems to be saying is that whilst Indys get more offers than GSs, they have identical acceptance rates.So that would suggest either

1. the opposite to what Disquitiones said.It is the Indies who are putting forward unsuitable candidates and overpredicting their grades
2. Admissions staff are more likely to make offers to less able students from Indys than GSs

There will be many factors involved - one can't be simplistic and reduce it to single sentences.

The difference between offers and acceptances is not caused only by missed grades: students from top independent schools are increasingly accepting offers from Ivy Leagues over Oxbridge.

Unconscious bias is (by its definition) everywhere but I genuinely don't see why admissions staff (many or most of whom were educated abroad or in non-selective state schools) should unconsciously favour less able students just because they come from independent schools. If anything the opposite should be true nowadays.

Gender bias is a whole other issue (women are under-represented in subjects where the staff are primarily male and do seem to be a little less likely to get offers) but (strangely?) this board doesn't seem particularly interested in gender issues in higher education.

"I genuinely don't see why admissions staff (many or most of whom were educated abroad or in non-selective state schools) should unconsciously favour less able students just because they come from independent schools. If anything the opposite should be true nowadays."

disquisitiones - I have a hunch, and this is based on years of personal observation rather than any sort of scientific study and I am not pretending this is an answer, that admissions staff who were educated abroad have a harder time sizing up applicants from less advantaged backgrounds than do native admissions staff. Higher levels of education and advantage tend to make people more accessible to those from other cultures.

to those defending Oxford admissions - I said this was a very able candidate. If they had chosen to apply to Cambridge I would expect them to have had an offer unless their interview was appalling and possibly even then.

Freedom of information requests would show if others were successful with less qualifications, statistics for previous years suggest there would be some. Obviously I could not say if others had outstanding interviews and hence Oxford will always be able to discriminate. If forced to open up the admission process to outside scrutiny - and perhaps videotape interviews - they couldn't.

I would advise any black candidate of sufficient ability to apply to Cambridge. The Oxford bursaries appeal to the disadvantaged but the chance of getting a place seems remote.

alreadytaken I recall you taking issue with an Oxford decision for a particular applicant for entry 2012 and at intervals after that you said you had grave doubts about the Oxford admissions process. I'd say that just because you judge an applicant to be able doesn't mean that Oxford will. It's arguable that Oxford and Cambridge may tend to favour slightly different types of student in any event so that an applicant applying to Oxford may well have bagged a place at Cambridge but is unsuccessful at Oxford, and the other way round (that's very definitely wholly unscientific :)). It will be interesting to see how things change, if at all, with the advent of aptitude tests at Cambridge.