applying for a german university

[mudandmayhem01]

Hi a student I am supporting is on an exchange programme completing her AS levels here before going back to Germany next year to complete her abitur ( German leaving certificate) She is loving being in England and wants to complete her A levels here and maybe even going to uni here We found lots of useful information on funding ( Germany would be a lot cheaper!) but any other useful info on comparing the two education systems. could she apply to a German university with A levels?

Hmmm... other than the fact that American Undergrads are all expected to work all the way thru termtime & FT in the holidays, like I did & my parents did. This is a core part of the financial package (yes even at Ivy league) As opposed to the Oxbridge system where they are banned from working FFS their wee little brains might melt I guess

The thing is at Oxbridge (not other UK universities, where some people have always had jobs), the term is only 8 weeks long. That means it is very very intense. With a lot of work in a short amount of time, never mind the extra curricula stuff and "college life". It does though leave about 1/2 the year to get a job.
The other thing is that the system in the UK just doesn't always have the jobs available for students in the UK. Some employers seem to be well set up for student workers (Asda I think), but others don't really get it (the one where I was asked why I wanted a career in retail, I just wanted a Christmas job).

I know some universities do parent talks at open days to separate students from parents. When I was visiting my university I went to a talk and all the questions except mine came from parents. One in particular kept saying 'but my daughter can do this' and 'my daughter already knows this' (the daughter didn't join the course!). So a separate student/parent talk gives students chance to ask .

Mummytime, I am a scientist and I can see how standards have declined now that students want to be told exactly what is in the exam and what is not in the exam.

The whole point is that students should be able to solve problems they had never met before based on the knowledge obtained in lectures/tutorials/problem sets. Switching to a system when students have seen examples of absolutely everything they will meet in an exam is very damaging and not at all representative of how they will use their education in real life.

For the poster who thinks that Oxbridge students should work in term-time: I'm pretty sure you have never studied there as an undergraduate. Based on my experiences at Oxbridge and top US Ivy League, the term time work load in Oxbridge is far higher because of the small number of teaching weeks. In my subject I would say that 50 hours per week of intense studying is the minimum to keep your head above water. Working a job on top of this is not sensible for most students, although some still do things like work in the college library or a few shifts in a coffee bar.

Well I did my first degree not at Oxbridge - and we weren't told "exactly what was in the exams" etc. But we did know what areas might/would come up, and had a syllabus. Admittedly in those days an O'level syllabus was a couple of paragraphs of key terms...

I do not think Oxbridge or certain other top Universities do "spoon feed" that much. Now I know other places receive a lot of pressure from both students, parents and administrators to over-help.
And this is more than used to be in the old days.

And of course there is grade inflation...

Hi there.

Disquisitions - I'm not sure if I am the one who said Oxbridge students should be working term time. I'd do agree that working part time while studying is not for all students. And the more demanding the course the more this applies to these students, so more common at Oxbridge I assume. I think it is altogether a good thing that a motivated student in the situation is financially supported by their parents to persue their ambitions. The very fact that the ability of parents to finance further education determines the options open to school leavers is so sad (for the individuals involved) and frightening (for the future of the UK). This is such a massive topic I am aware this is not even scratching the surface.

It also has implications in the parent child relationship dynamic, which could be the reason why parents sometimes feel obliged to solve relatively everyday problems faced by their adult children. Consider this from the young person perspective... Hardly a confidence boost. I don't have time to be more clear with what I mean I'm afraid.

Because of the financial investment made by parents I understand why they expect to be a more significant participant in their adult children's university education than ever before. I understand why universities provide it. Again big topic, not even scratching surface here. having such leverage in another's life is infantilising. Not the students fault, not the parents fault. I believe it's a symptom of a much wider societal change. Again no time.

FWIW I worked for two year befor uni full time to save money. Not in the UK as could not afford rent. I move to other EU countries (3in total)and to jobs (3) that had accomodation included in the contract. I learnt 2 languages and arguably developed a 'mini career' before starting university. I also managed to sAve enough money to go to a Uk university. I believe we should empower young people, and that solving their everyday problems is stifling and can knock their confidence. They then need more proper adult involvement to function normally and the cycle continues. Please consider the collective poor mental health of the under 25s. The status quo is not working for them.

Thank you for your responses, I love a debate and I love hearing people's opinions about this subject in particular. I'm not trying to criticise personal parenting choices, it's the collective trend that interests me.

Umm I do have one other thing to add.

I like lots of people have hoiked my judgey pants when hearing about Helicopter parents.

But then the daughter of some good friends of ours started Uni. And simply couldn't cope, she basically had what was called in the olden days a "nervous breakdown". The only way her parents could get her to stay at Uni and not quit (and it was the best course for her, the course wasn't a problem) was for them to take long periods of time off work and frequently visit/stay with her.
Fortunately for her second year they have been able to buy a flat in her University town, and her mother having left her job is virtually living there with her.

This is not some mollycoddled precious princess, but a girl with learning difficulties (I suspect ASD, but that wasn't diagnosed last time we discussed her diagnosis years ago). She just can't cope with student life, although she is doing very well with the course.

Of course back in my day she'd have probably received limited education, have been hidden away from society (either at home or sheltered housing), and have made very little economic contribution to society.

I know there are some students who are just "too immature" for Uni, but then why do we push them into it before they are ready? But others do need more support, and that can make their parents look like they are being over protective.

standards have declined now that students want to be told exactly what is in the exam and what is not in the exam.

Neah, not new. When I taught on an MSc course 20-22 yrs ago, the students tried to write down every single word as I said it. Really we had to give them a handout with every powerpoint slide on it, to get them to actually listen & process rather than slavishly copy. I thought it was just an English thing (although to be fair many of the students were not British). Later I decided that (slavishly copying every word) was how most people had long tried to learn, I was just in a bubble during my own Uni days not to realise it.

Now everything is paperwork age, so the lecturers have to be able to document & defend every decision in case someone fails & goes to appeal. There are optional modules without assessment, of course, which I am looking forward to lecturing on because the students are there purely because they want to engage with a topic not because they are being assessed for a final mark.

In my experience English universities at undergraduate level... its more like kindergarten... with lots of alcohol. Not many take it seriously, its more about 'finding oneself'. Undergraduate degrees are bought.

how many have you been to then?
At my mid ranking uni I'm surrounded by grounded down to earth people who work really hard for their good grades & know how to have a great time. The tools are there, you have to make an effort to know how to use them, but no, I def go to uni not nursery, thanks.

In Austria I met a lot of students who were on their 5th+ year of their undergrad and that was totally normal. They felt the pressure for individual exams throughout term time but there was little doubt they'd get their degree in the end. Not so here.
In my French family, French undergrad degrees are seen as a bit worthless, as in, any job worth applying for will ask for postgrad as a minimum. They seem to see a Masters almost like we see an undergrad degree here. So obviously UK unis aren't doing too badly.
I feel like at my uni we're not really led to good marks in the way we were at the unis I did my year abroad at. It's much much more about taking an independent approach to essays etc. If you just stick to the reading list you won't get a great mark, but in Austria, I was told it categorically wasn't worth venturing beyond the set texts they gave you, e.g. no Jstor. You had to know those really well and they gave you a hell of a lot, but the analysis was much less complex and we were basically guided and handheld all the way. In that sense a British student could really rest on their laurels. When I hand in an essay here in the UK it's all about, have I developed my ideas enough, is my bibliography good enough etc.
Oh and have to echo what a PP said about the exam system - here it's totally anonymous, very strict about that. On my year abroad it was v.v. casual, no submitting three different copies, no anonymity whatsoever.

"Germany and surrounding countries have large drop out rates and many students take a long time to complete their degrees."
The second part of that belief is pretty outdated now the Bologna process has been implemented. The days of the 'eternal student' are long gone. Most undergrad programmes have gone over to bachelors followed by masters instead of going straight to a masters or diploma. The bachelor usually needs to be completed in four years. It is possible to repeat years, but not indefinitely. Even before the bachelors/masters distinction had been introduced, most universities had introduced a 14 semester maximum, after which you just got kicked out for overstaying your welcome.
Most German academics think the bachelors IS of a lower standard than the old masters programme, and many students carry straight on to do a masters for that reason. But it doesn't automatically mean that the British bachelors is of a higher standard than the equivalent in Germany, just that employers in the UK are OK with accepting a lower standard, while German employers are traditionally used to seeing a master's as the standard qualification.

However it is true that certain universities deliberately take on larger numbers of students than they can cope with because they know so many will fail the first year. I believe that's particularly extreme for maths programmes. The academics, of course, it's because standards have fallen in schools, not that their own expectations have increased.

"The European context is very different. Students live at home (how does that make them less independent that UK students?)."
Eh? In Italy maybe, but certainly not in Germany (unless you live and study in Munich, which is horrifically expensive). It's absolutely standard to move away from home when you start studying, but perhaps less common to move into university accommodation than in the UK.

"Standards are also very inconsistent in many European countries, as there are no systems of external examining, moderating exams and quality curriculum assessment is very loose."

That used to be the case in Germany, which used to follow the Humboldt ideal of 'total freedom of education for teacher and student', but with the advent of the Bologna era I believe all programmes are now subject to external accreditation which has to be renewed (every 5 years?). The accreditation checks that the standards and syllabus are rigorous enough, and if not can refuse to allow a bachelor's or masters to be awarded under that name. The accreditation thing is a BIG thing for unis nowadays, DH has been through a few of them. I'm not sure how much this kind of external accreditation has been implemented across Europe though.

"Germany and surrounding countries have large drop out rates and many students take a long time to complete their degrees." The second part of that belief is pretty outdated now the Bologna process has been implemented.

As somebody who has worked as a professor in such a country (recently), I don't agree. Some universities in some countries enforce limits on retakes and numbers of years studying but taking more than 3 years for a Bachelors remains common in many places. I receive many applications (for PhDs) from students who have taken 4-5+ years for Bachelors and 3+ years for Masters: these are students with high grades, but who nonetheless delayed completing their degrees and who are typically not penalised for it in their own countries. (Although in the UK we would tend to be much more cautious about taking on a PhD student who had taken such a long time to finish their Bachelors and Masters, unless there were very good reasons for the delay.)

Moreover, in some countries (where socialism amongst students is on the increase) rules limiting the numbers of semesters of study or the number of retakes possible are actually currently being reversed.

I believe all programmes are now subject to external accreditation which has to be renewed (every 5 years?)

But this is a joke. Again I speak from recent experience. The checks on my courses were so ludicrously low level as to be meaningless. I also know from colleagues throughout Europe that the checks on their courses are negligible, compared to the system we have in the UK.

I've not worked in Germany, but I've seen the system there from visits, speaking invitations, conferences etc. It's hierarchical and also "sink or swim" for large numbers of students.

I've also had serious enquiries here in the UK when avertising PhD studentships from Germans with one doctorate already, who think nothing of studying for a (funded) second one; seemed as if it's not an outlandish thing to do. I suppose that's encouraged by the remaining requirement for the Habilitation in order to get a permanent post. But it felt to me as if those applicants actually preferred to be lifelong students, rather than use their PhDs.