applying for a german university

[mudandmayhem01]

Hi a student I am supporting is on an exchange programme completing her AS levels here before going back to Germany next year to complete her abitur ( German leaving certificate) She is loving being in England and wants to complete her A levels here and maybe even going to uni here We found lots of useful information on funding ( Germany would be a lot cheaper!) but any other useful info on comparing the two education systems. could she apply to a German university with A levels?

[MultishirkingAgain]

I've not worked in Germany, but I've seen the system there from visits, speaking invitations, conferences etc. It's hierarchical and also "sink or swim" for large numbers of students.

I've also had serious enquiries here in the UK when avertising PhD studentships from Germans with one doctorate already, who think nothing of studying for a (funded) second one; seemed as if it's not an outlandish thing to do. I suppose that's encouraged by the remaining requirement for the Habilitation in order to get a permanent post. But it felt to me as if those applicants actually preferred to be lifelong students, rather than use their PhDs.

[disquisitiones]

"Germany and surrounding countries have large drop out rates and many students take a long time to complete their degrees." The second part of that belief is pretty outdated now the Bologna process has been implemented.

As somebody who has worked as a professor in such a country (recently), I don't agree. Some universities in some countries enforce limits on retakes and numbers of years studying but taking more than 3 years for a Bachelors remains common in many places. I receive many applications (for PhDs) from students who have taken 4-5+ years for Bachelors and 3+ years for Masters: these are students with high grades, but who nonetheless delayed completing their degrees and who are typically not penalised for it in their own countries. (Although in the UK we would tend to be much more cautious about taking on a PhD student who had taken such a long time to finish their Bachelors and Masters, unless there were very good reasons for the delay.)

Moreover, in some countries (where socialism amongst students is on the increase) rules limiting the numbers of semesters of study or the number of retakes possible are actually currently being reversed.

I believe all programmes are now subject to external accreditation which has to be renewed (every 5 years?)

But this is a joke. Again I speak from recent experience. The checks on my courses were so ludicrously low level as to be meaningless. I also know from colleagues throughout Europe that the checks on their courses are negligible, compared to the system we have in the UK.

[Archfarchnad]

"Germany and surrounding countries have large drop out rates and many students take a long time to complete their degrees."
The second part of that belief is pretty outdated now the Bologna process has been implemented. The days of the 'eternal student' are long gone. Most undergrad programmes have gone over to bachelors followed by masters instead of going straight to a masters or diploma. The bachelor usually needs to be completed in four years. It is possible to repeat years, but not indefinitely. Even before the bachelors/masters distinction had been introduced, most universities had introduced a 14 semester maximum, after which you just got kicked out for overstaying your welcome.
Most German academics think the bachelors IS of a lower standard than the old masters programme, and many students carry straight on to do a masters for that reason. But it doesn't automatically mean that the British bachelors is of a higher standard than the equivalent in Germany, just that employers in the UK are OK with accepting a lower standard, while German employers are traditionally used to seeing a master's as the standard qualification.

However it is true that certain universities deliberately take on larger numbers of students than they can cope with because they know so many will fail the first year. I believe that's particularly extreme for maths programmes. The academics, of course, it's because standards have fallen in schools, not that their own expectations have increased.

"The European context is very different. Students live at home (how does that make them less independent that UK students?)."
Eh? In Italy maybe, but certainly not in Germany (unless you live and study in Munich, which is horrifically expensive). It's absolutely standard to move away from home when you start studying, but perhaps less common to move into university accommodation than in the UK.

"Standards are also very inconsistent in many European countries, as there are no systems of external examining, moderating exams and quality curriculum assessment is very loose."

That used to be the case in Germany, which used to follow the Humboldt ideal of 'total freedom of education for teacher and student', but with the advent of the Bologna era I believe all programmes are now subject to external accreditation which has to be renewed (every 5 years?). The accreditation checks that the standards and syllabus are rigorous enough, and if not can refuse to allow a bachelor's or masters to be awarded under that name. The accreditation thing is a BIG thing for unis nowadays, DH has been through a few of them. I'm not sure how much this kind of external accreditation has been implemented across Europe though.

[velourvoyageur]

In my experience English universities at undergraduate level... its more like kindergarten... with lots of alcohol. Not many take it seriously, its more about 'finding oneself'. Undergraduate degrees are bought.

how many have you been to then?
At my mid ranking uni I'm surrounded by grounded down to earth people who work really hard for their good grades & know how to have a great time. The tools are there, you have to make an effort to know how to use them, but no, I def go to uni not nursery, thanks.

In Austria I met a lot of students who were on their 5th+ year of their undergrad and that was totally normal. They felt the pressure for individual exams throughout term time but there was little doubt they'd get their degree in the end. Not so here.
In my French family, French undergrad degrees are seen as a bit worthless, as in, any job worth applying for will ask for postgrad as a minimum. They seem to see a Masters almost like we see an undergrad degree here. So obviously UK unis aren't doing too badly.
I feel like at my uni we're not really led to good marks in the way we were at the unis I did my year abroad at. It's much much more about taking an independent approach to essays etc. If you just stick to the reading list you won't get a great mark, but in Austria, I was told it categorically wasn't worth venturing beyond the set texts they gave you, e.g. no Jstor. You had to know those really well and they gave you a hell of a lot, but the analysis was much less complex and we were basically guided and handheld all the way. In that sense a British student could really rest on their laurels. When I hand in an essay here in the UK it's all about, have I developed my ideas enough, is my bibliography good enough etc.
Oh and have to echo what a PP said about the exam system - here it's totally anonymous, very strict about that. On my year abroad it was v.v. casual, no submitting three different copies, no anonymity whatsoever.

[ragged]

standards have declined now that students want to be told exactly what is in the exam and what is not in the exam.

Neah, not new. When I taught on an MSc course 20-22 yrs ago, the students tried to write down every single word as I said it. Really we had to give them a handout with every powerpoint slide on it, to get them to actually listen & process rather than slavishly copy. I thought it was just an English thing (although to be fair many of the students were not British). Later I decided that (slavishly copying every word) was how most people had long tried to learn, I was just in a bubble during my own Uni days not to realise it.

Now everything is paperwork age, so the lecturers have to be able to document & defend every decision in case someone fails & goes to appeal. There are optional modules without assessment, of course, which I am looking forward to lecturing on because the students are there purely because they want to engage with a topic not because they are being assessed for a final mark.

[mummytime]

Umm I do have one other thing to add.

I like lots of people have hoiked my judgey pants when hearing about Helicopter parents.

But then the daughter of some good friends of ours started Uni. And simply couldn't cope, she basically had what was called in the olden days a "nervous breakdown". The only way her parents could get her to stay at Uni and not quit (and it was the best course for her, the course wasn't a problem) was for them to take long periods of time off work and frequently visit/stay with her.
Fortunately for her second year they have been able to buy a flat in her University town, and her mother having left her job is virtually living there with her.

This is not some mollycoddled precious princess, but a girl with learning difficulties (I suspect ASD, but that wasn't diagnosed last time we discussed her diagnosis years ago). She just can't cope with student life, although she is doing very well with the course.

Of course back in my day she'd have probably received limited education, have been hidden away from society (either at home or sheltered housing), and have made very little economic contribution to society.

I know there are some students who are just "too immature" for Uni, but then why do we push them into it before they are ready? But others do need more support, and that can make their parents look like they are being over protective.

[nearlyteatime101]

Hi there.

Disquisitions - I'm not sure if I am the one who said Oxbridge students should be working term time. I'd do agree that working part time while studying is not for all students. And the more demanding the course the more this applies to these students, so more common at Oxbridge I assume. I think it is altogether a good thing that a motivated student in the situation is financially supported by their parents to persue their ambitions. The very fact that the ability of parents to finance further education determines the options open to school leavers is so sad (for the individuals involved) and frightening (for the future of the UK). This is such a massive topic I am aware this is not even scratching the surface.

It also has implications in the parent child relationship dynamic, which could be the reason why parents sometimes feel obliged to solve relatively everyday problems faced by their adult children. Consider this from the young person perspective... Hardly a confidence boost. I don't have time to be more clear with what I mean I'm afraid.

Because of the financial investment made by parents I understand why they expect to be a more significant participant in their adult children's university education than ever before. I understand why universities provide it. Again big topic, not even scratching surface here. having such leverage in another's life is infantilising. Not the students fault, not the parents fault. I believe it's a symptom of a much wider societal change. Again no time.


FWIW I worked for two year befor uni full time to save money. Not in the UK as could not afford rent. I move to other EU countries (3in total)and to jobs (3) that had accomodation included in the contract. I learnt 2 languages and arguably developed a 'mini career' before starting university. I also managed to sAve enough money to go to a Uk university. I believe we should empower young people, and that solving their everyday problems is stifling and can knock their confidence. They then need more proper adult involvement to function normally and the cycle continues. Please consider the collective poor mental health of the under 25s. The status quo is not working for them.

Thank you for your responses, I love a debate and I love hearing people's opinions about this subject in particular. I'm not trying to criticise personal parenting choices, it's the collective trend that interests me.

[mummytime]

Well I did my first degree not at Oxbridge - and we weren't told "exactly what was in the exams" etc. But we did know what areas might/would come up, and had a syllabus. Admittedly in those days an O'level syllabus was a couple of paragraphs of key terms...

I do not think Oxbridge or certain other top Universities do "spoon feed" that much. Now I know other places receive a lot of pressure from both students, parents and administrators to over-help.
And this is more than used to be in the old days.

And of course there is grade inflation...

[disquisitiones]

Mummytime, I am a scientist and I can see how standards have declined now that students want to be told exactly what is in the exam and what is not in the exam.

The whole point is that students should be able to solve problems they had never met before based on the knowledge obtained in lectures/tutorials/problem sets. Switching to a system when students have seen examples of absolutely everything they will meet in an exam is very damaging and not at all representative of how they will use their education in real life.

For the poster who thinks that Oxbridge students should work in term-time: I'm pretty sure you have never studied there as an undergraduate. Based on my experiences at Oxbridge and top US Ivy League, the term time work load in Oxbridge is far higher because of the small number of teaching weeks. In my subject I would say that 50 hours per week of intense studying is the minimum to keep your head above water. Working a job on top of this is not sensible for most students, although some still do things like work in the college library or a few shifts in a coffee bar.

[TheDrsDocMartens]

I know some universities do parent talks at open days to separate students from parents. When I was visiting my university I went to a talk and all the questions except mine came from parents. One in particular kept saying 'but my daughter can do this' and 'my daughter already knows this' (the daughter didn't join the course!). So a separate student/parent talk gives students chance to ask .

[mummytime]

Hmmm... other than the fact that American Undergrads are all expected to work all the way thru termtime & FT in the holidays, like I did & my parents did. This is a core part of the financial package (yes even at Ivy league) As opposed to the Oxbridge system where they are banned from working FFS their wee little brains might melt I guess

The thing is at Oxbridge (not other UK universities, where some people have always had jobs), the term is only 8 weeks long. That means it is very very intense. With a lot of work in a short amount of time, never mind the extra curricula stuff and "college life". It does though leave about 1/2 the year to get a job.
The other thing is that the system in the UK just doesn't always have the jobs available for students in the UK. Some employers seem to be well set up for student workers (Asda I think), but others don't really get it (the one where I was asked why I wanted a career in retail, I just wanted a Christmas job).

[ragged]

I assume your referring to the 'parent portal' type web page when you say that the universities would be looking to curry your favour?

I was thinking of talks at open days for parents. Parents have to give lifts & help their kids work out logistics. I admit to have no clue what info is on a (UK) Uni parent portal website.


American university undergraduate students and babied to an extreme.

Hmmm... other than the fact that American Undergrads are all expected to work all the way thru termtime & FT in the holidays, like I did & my parents did. This is a core part of the financial package (yes even at Ivy league) As opposed to the Oxbridge system where they are banned from working FFS their wee little brains might melt I guess And how American Undergrads take on loans (possibly enormous) that follow one to the grave if unpaid, no such things as loans written off after 35 yrs.

American kids usually have been driving since age 16yo so of course drive selves to and from University, even if it's many hundreds of miles away.

Oh, and if they don't go to Uni (college), can they sign on for unemployment benefits? Can they sausages. May be lucky enough to live in parents' garage with no income at all sell drugs? and hope that somebody pays for their health insurance, at least.

[mummytime]

"Traditionally places such as Oxbridge did not have a rigid detailed syllabus because students were meant to have studied deeply enough to not need one. Giving a detailed syllabus in such contexts lowers the standards as students know precisely what to learn (and what not to learn) for exams, and therefore study much more narrowly. "

This might be true for English, but for subjects in the Sciences, it was disastrous - as there is too much to possibly know, and students did encounter exam questions on topics they might never have come across even if they attended all lectures and tutorials and read widely etc.

Also some of my lecturers could not teach, struggled to convey any information and at times one would leave the lectures knowing less than when you went in. Never mind the course that I missed the first 5 minutes of and never learnt what it was about (although by fluke it was the area I used for my doctorate at another University).

[mummytime]

I have been influencing my children's career choices since they were tiny. All parents do.
Whether it is "University isn't for the likes of us."
Or the general expectation that most of them will go to University.

In my case it has included offering options that they might want to consider (eg. study overseas). For some options they need to get relevant experience, which they can be helped towards.

I am surprised when some friends children seem to only consider careers linked to the NHS. But then again lots of teachers are the children of teachers.

But this is true everywhere I think. Certainly my German pen friend's sister studied a course related to her taking over their father's business.

[disquisitiones]

And from personal experience, the standard of education seems to be improving in the UK. A certain highly thought of university now has a syllabus for its degrees, so you know what to learn for the exams. Also most new lecturers have to take some kind of training in teaching. All very different from my day.

Traditionally places such as Oxbridge did not have a rigid detailed syllabus because students were meant to have studied deeply enough to not need one. Giving a detailed syllabus in such contexts lowers the standards as students know precisely what to learn (and what not to learn) for exams, and therefore study much more narrowly.

Teaching training for academics is also known not to be strongly correlated with effective delivery of university level courses. Admittedly it is hard to measure teaching effectiveness but many measures used do not seem to correlate good teaching at university level with training in teaching.

Box ticking to try to prove quality of university education is increasing in the UK. I would not say that standards of educations are increasing. (In my experience Oxbridge students graduating in my subject are weaker than they were ten or twenty years ago as their starting point on entrance is lower.)

BTW one of the main reasons for introducing monitoring systems for attendance at lectures is international students rather than home students: universities are terrified they will be stripped of their ability to take international students, so they are monitoring attendance to be able to prove that such students are studying and not using their study visas just to enter the UK.

[nearlyteatime101]

And I think teaching to the syllabus is a completely nonsensical way to inspire creativity and ingenuity. Which university is it please? I would really like to look more into this development. Knowing what you need to learn for the exams seems entirely contrary to what is currently considered desirable.

[nearlyteatime101]

Mummytime I understand entirely that you want a good return on your investment.

But this is entirely my point. The very fact that you (and tens of thousands of parents across the country no doubt) quite reasonably and sensibly want a good return and therefore take an active role in, what should be, your child's career choices, along with many other contributing factors, mean that adults studying at university are not ready for the demands it places upon them.

[mummytime]

"The European context is very different. Students live at home (how does that make them less independent that UK students?)."

This is exactly the point I was making. The majority of students in the UK live away from home. If their parents have a reasonable income, the funding they get is reduced in line with parental income. So parents have to support their student children. Even low income students struggle to pay rent, even with the full amount of maintenance - which is being phased out.
If I make a big investment I research it, whether that is a house, a car, or my children's education.

One of my children received careers advice which suggested they studied for a course which was heavy on continual assessment. I had grave doubts about this, knowing how they struggled to keep up to date with work, but did seem able to fluke exams. If I'm paying for the course or helping to pay, then I will try to influence their decision, to ensure they have the highest chance for success.
That is not babying them, but protecting my investment.

When looking at US universities I was surprised/shocked how often even extra curricula activities are all staff led; which is very different from the UK.

And from personal experience, the standard of education seems to be improving in the UK. A certain highly thought of university now has a syllabus for its degrees, so you know what to learn for the exams.
Also most new lecturers have to take some kind of training in teaching. All very different from my day.

[nearlyteatime101]

I am aware of the context, I have the debt to prove it. My parents did not contribute to my upkeep in any way at all. I had a job throughout university working 36 hours each week. I am convinced that this job was the reason I walked into good employment straight after graduating. I paid my own rent and maintenance. Got a first class degree. Had a great social life. Did additional 'work experience'. Nevertheless I have tens of thousands of pounds worth of debt. Perhaps because of the low academic expectation and how few contact hours I had. My parents certainly did not HAVE to give me money.

I apologise for what I wrote about the award for getting 40%. I remember just after posting it is actually 50%.

Consuming higher education: why learning can't be bought (Joanna Williams) - interesting book.

[titchy]

Teatime you're clearly unaware of the context English universities are operating in. Parents HAVE to contribute to the upkeep of their university kids where they can afford to. There is no access to funding other than the statutory amount of loan which often doesn't even cover hall fees.

University staff here are supportive of their students. We like to know if students aren't coping and signpost help if we can. One of the first signs someone isn't coping is not turning up. A good company would do the same for its employees. I certainly don't see that as babying.

If students are about to drop out we also require evidence of their last date of attendance so the SLC doesn't over charge the student. We also have to monitor attendance of overseas students legally.

Certificates and other exit routes are NOT awarded when someone gets less than 40%. They are awarded if someone gains over 40% but doesn't take as many modules as required for a degree.

The European context is very different. Students live at home (how does that make them less independent that UK students?).

[nearlyteatime101]

Hi disquisitiones. I've no evidence that standards are better elsewhere, only personal experience. That said I didn't say that they were better anywhere else, just that they are slipping here.

I do think that universities here in the UK have a bigger incentive to keep their students on the courses. It's even possible to finish with a 'certificate of further education' for those who don't achieve an actual degree, i.e. didn't get an average of 40% or more in their assessments.

American university undergraduate students and babied to an extreme. Needless to say I don't think that is something we should aspire to, and nor does it excuse us. However, as UK system inevitably becomes more Americanised I do expect this will happen.

As for the external examinations in the European system, I had no idea, I'll be reading about that more soon I expect. so thank you.

Thank you for replying

[nearlyteatime101]

Thank you for replying ragged. I didn't mean that parents shouldn't be supportive of their adult children studying at university. I'm sorry if that came across, I'm really trying to be clear and I'm aware that this hasn't worked.

I assume your referring to the 'parent portal' type web page when you say that the universities would be looking to curry your favour? Firstly i totally agree that a parent should be there to bounce ideas off. I suppose my response to that would be that the university should not really have to set up a specific web page to do this. They could just advertise their merits through the normal channels. I'm not saying that a parents portal is the devil (or not useful for that matter), I just think that its one of a few things that the universities do differently here (verses other EU) that may perhaps be leading the students to take a different attitude towards their university education. Becoming a bit more 'provider/consumer' rather than 'educator/student'.

Yes I agree also that if a uni wanted to boot out a student for poor effort they would have to have documents to prove their point. I've never personally known of this to happen so can't really say much more than that. However, for a university to kick out a student who doesn't attend it would be like shooting themselves in the foot! Missing out on all that cash for someone they don't even need to teach anything to!

[disquisitiones]

I love British universities, but the standard at undergraduate level is slipping down.

What's your evidence that undergraduate standards are better elsewhere? I have worked as an academic in four countries (Europe and North America) and it definitely isn't true in my experience.

Germany and surrounding countries have large drop out rates and many students take a long time to complete their degrees. The UK has considerably lower drop out rates and the vast majority of students complete their degrees within the standard time frame. American undergraduates are babied (even at top Ivy Leagues) to a degree that would be unthinkable in top UK universities.

Standards are also very inconsistent in many European countries, as there are no systems of external examining, moderating exams and quality curriculum assessment is very loose.

[ragged]

So bizarre that English (European??) parents of university students are criticised for being supportive.

When DD goes to look at Unis I will be one of the main people she will bounce ideas off of, there are compelling reasons why my impressions and observations could be uniquely useful. Of course the university should curry my favour if they want to increase odds that DD will get a good impression of them.

We live in a paperwork age & if a university wants to expel someone for lousy effort they have to very clearly document the many ways that the student hasn't been making an effort.

[nearlyteatime101]

Yeah like said, there are a lot of reasons that attendance is recorded. One of those reasons is that students cannot be trusted to attend without incentive. At some point/points in ones time at university, students are often surveyed to find possible areas of improvement on their course. Lecturers find that increasing contact hours is almost always requested. These would then be provided, and students would not attend. Hence attendance records were introduced in part to illustrate that this request was being fulfilled. DrsDoc - its very disheartening that so many students miss classes that come at such expense to themselves and taxpayers.

Re ucas parent portal Mummytime, you have hit the nail on the head. The parents have a lot invested in their grown up children's life/education. Students should be studying for their own sake, not their parents. Parents, for better or for worse, have more of a say in their adult children's lives for longer. In this way they stay 'children' for longer.

As far as getting to and from uni Myvisions... I think you summed it up nicely at the end '...maybe it's easier for mum and dad to pick up'. Of course it is easier, but that doesn't mean it is helping anyone grow up and become a fully independent adult. I'm certainly not advocating leaving ones children in times of need, I would move heaven and hell if my children needed it. I'm only suggesting that this is the type of predicament that is likely to crop up time and time again and mum and dad bailing them out just because its the easiest thing to do is not going to help in the long run. Also, there are lots of students that don't have this facility and they cope, you just have to be creative in your problem solving. They might even learn life lessons along the way.

Yes I do think that some students are babied when 'caring' adults step in to rectify relatively everyday problems. I believe it has created a change in collective attitude and makes them difficult to teach. Its very unfair to the ones that are there to learn.

I love British universities, but the standard at undergraduate level is slipping down.