Need some honest advice for DS applying for physics degree

[Judie0000]

DS wants to read Physics at a Russell group uni, a few choices, however he wants to apply to UCL, Warwick and Durham who's entry requirements range from 2AA to AAA. However, this is the big but! He hasn't done further maths and he got a B in physics, abeit a very high one waiting for remarks. He has A's in 3 AS ( maths, econ, bio) 1B in physics. He will be carrying on with those subjects so doing 4 A levels plus EPQ in physics Honest opinions please, Does he have a realistic shot at those uni, i've mentioned with B in physics and no FM, since they are highly competitive and selective uni? Or look at other uni with lower entry instead.

need was talking to a mum whos ds went to a bath openday. physics dept said that they were raising their grade requirements even though they don't get a huge amount of applicants because they are getting large numbers of very good quality, well qualified applicants. So my guess is those kids that do take a physics degree are probably an extremely bright lot, are good at chemistry maths and physics. Which is where I worry for DS who's not gifted but is smart but not genius or the very clever level for the likes of Durham and a few others, the playing field is high lots of very good players. DS needs to either like you say do FM or look at alternatives.
august birmingham doesn't do physics unconditional i had a look at their list. Wonder why they have low offer rates? Must be something else happening
bikerun DS has been brainwashed that only RG uni is safe bet, somehow in his brain he thinks that RG are the only proper universities in the UK school I'm thinking is the culprit! When I had a look at their school leavers destination it reads more like RG destination list. So I think no budging there.
error he only likes physics, I'm trying to sell him business and physics at Warwick. The boy either needs to aim lower or raise his game! I think he will still apply, but I'm kind of pessimistic of the outcome trying to stay realistic not completely writing him off. I know I sound it

Perhaps Bham have low offer rates because they are popular - they do seem to come quite high in the Physics league tables. Bath is high in the tables too. Both higher than Manchester.

I'd advise giving it a good, aspirational go this year. If it comes off then fine. If not then take a gap year to take the FM and earn some money.

I can't find the stats for Manchester or Bath but Birmingham says that it had 1032 applications for 160 places.

A physics degree at one of those unis will be tough- does he appreciate that? Is he prepared for the longer hours of lectures and study than a lot of other courses? If you have an apptitude for science it can be fairly easy to get a high grade at A level without putting in much effort, but uni is another ball game. I did a physics variant at Warwick without having done FM (15 years ago). Was on the back foot from day one as just a short series of catch up sessions in the first term if you hadn't. Often wished I'd gone for an "easier" uni despite my 3 As at A level. Got my 2:1 in the end through sheer determination but in all honesty felt out of my depth and it knocked my confidence. If he enjoys physics but doesn't want a science/academic career he may stand himself better off for the graduate job market with 1st from another good uni rather than scraping for a 2:2 from a top uni in this field. Some online applications actually rule you out at the first hurdle if you don't have a 2:1. I don't want you to feel like he shouldn't push himself, he might well cope perfectly fine and excel under the pressure, but it's a big investment to think about these days! Also, for info I was able to take quite a few options in buisiness studies in my final year.

I'm getting confused here.

It's UCL that has the 37% application to offerrate not Birmingham -

• that makes more sense.

Bath says on its website 815 applicants 125 places so not as many applicants it requires A*AA
Bristol 1262 applicants 172 places is AAA requirement.
UCL 1562 applicants 142 places is AAA requirement.
In way wouldn't it be harder to get offers from AAA uni since they have more applicants to choose from? Then say from the higher tariff uni? I'm no good at data analysis??
random I think I appreciate how tough a physics degree more than DS!. I think hes underestimating how rigourous it is. Hes been able to get his grades more because of the good teachers plus the competing nature of being in a boys school, they do alot of competitve sports too, so pretty much all about winning and being top. Dh thinks he suited to finance field, safer more choices in jobs, but when he suggested it we get this scowled look

The number of applicants isn't really that useful - take 1000 applicants all applyin for places in one of five universities, all of which have two hundred spaces. 1000 applicants for 200 places sounds competitive, but actually means that all applicants will find a place somewhere as each applicant is counted five times.

What you really need to know is how many offers.

Actually what you really need to know is what they're looking for, do it and make sure it goes in the PS!

Good advice from Senua I think. It's very easy to get panicky at this time, I know I did too the whole UCAS thing is so stressful and it seems like an impossible mountain to climb.
I remember DD talking about people with much lower grades than your DS applying for Durham, UCL etc (fairly good indie with similar RG obsession) and most made it, many resit AS papers and still got offers. It seems that the predicted grades (and getting those predictions) are key.
There's a reason that your DS's school has a list of leavers at good Unis, it's because they know their pupils, what the departments want and guide them accordingly.
He has aspirations and knows what he wants, that may be the driving force for him the work really hard and get the grades.

Judie don't be put off so quickly.

Some slightly disjointed observations.

1. The Complete Unversity Guide table is useful. Filter by entry standards and you get an idea of the qualification levels of sucessful applicants. (And huge UCAS points for physics at Imperial means candidates have lots of As at A level, not that they have faffed around collecting points from Critical Thinking or Grade 8 Drumming. Universities may have similar offer grades, but some will be offering further flexibility and others will be rejecting well qualified candidates.) In most subjects there is a drop off after the top three to five, though physics may be different as a number of traditional red bricks have long traditions of teaching physics. (DS applied for 5 out of the top six ranked economics courses with a 4 x A prediction and only got two offers. One of his classmates fared less well but then got Cambridge, though not LSE, on reapplication. From what DS says, his friends did not find physics and engineering any easier, and ended up going to a wide range of Universities despite, as in one case, 5 x A*.)

1. Vocational-type courses (STEM, maths, engineering, law, medicine, economics, accountancy) at top Universities are attracting increasing numbers of overseas students. Home students too, are more focussed on the value of their investment, especially certain groups, for example London's ex-pat community and some ethnic groups. (I remember one friend with a Caribbean background saying his parents were absolutely prond as they had achieved a professional full-house. He and his seven siblings were respectively a lawyer, doctor, dentist, architect, engineer, and so on!) Year on year demand is rising. One friend of my son's, from a country without traditional links to the UK said their decision making was simple. Either she got an Ivy League place or she went to the UK. Simple return on inverstment. Harvard would be worth the huge fees, otherwise the brand recognition/teaching from top UK Universities offered better value for money.

1. Maths at University is different. Here I am talking about the maths needed to support other quantitative subjects. The approach is not like school, and it is more than possible to come unstuck. DS wobbled in his second term with a topic he found difficult. You go to a lecture then need to spend several hours on your own going through it to make sure you understand and can apply. You need to ask for help as no one is going to check. Hence his view that the more maths you have to start with, the easier it is. That said many of his peers self studied the FM AS, the discipline of which presumably provides a useful grounding.

1. A level grades are not everything. University is a step up. DS was always an average mathematician, albeit in a very selective school where 50% take double maths. His first year exams suggest he is far higher in the year group at University than he ever was at school, even in courses also taken by actuaries and the maths department. The reverse may be true of others. The hardest working boy he knows is struggling to keep up, despite all night library stints. The friend I talked to used to have four hours tutoring each day after school, apparantly a cultural norm. Yes she has great A level grades, but is not faring as well at a higher level. Qualities such as resiliance, interest in the subject (so many kids seem to be studying subjects their parents have chosen) and a capacity for independent study are really important. Take away the one-to-one tutoring and parental supervision and without those qualities a student can well come unstuck. (Interestingly, and harking back to an earlier thread about career opportunities for tutors, the grad student who takes one of DS' classes appears to have quite a profitable line in UG tutoring. I assume having paid so much to send your child overseas, you will fork out extra to help ensure they pass any resits.)

So on one level things top University courses are very competitive. However bright kids in selective private schools can be better than they think, especially if they are getting their results without working flat out. If your son's physics teacher thinks he has a spark, be guided by her. But if he is not sure, think about a gap year, perhaps gaining the FM, and focussing this year on getting as good grades as possible. The exciting thing about British tertiary education is that we have an influx of students and academics from all over, meaning our children have access to a world class and international education on the door step.

titchy I can see now why I'm daunted by the figures on face value but when it's explained in detail it's making some sense.

cathy & need I just kind of feel ds is muddling his way through the process being too laid back. Most of his classmates who have done AS physics have done FM too and have the A grade as they did M1 maths module whereas DS did S1 for his AS maths. And now FM lot will be doing M2 its going to help alot with physics. Theres just that feeling that ds is going to have to pull his socks up at A2 physics even more, he is the only one not doing FM in his physics class. Even those in his economics class majority are doing FM. I would be alot happier if he did it.
I just think that FM will be advantage whatever he does but not having it he will regret. I suppose he's a big boy now, he should be thinking for himself not have us moaning at him. He's bright I don't want him to struggle needlessly because he didn't plan. To be honest he doesn't put 100% effort into revision for example in bio which he hates he managed to get a very high A. And yet I remember moaning at him senseless to revise, he didnt listen. Then there's him giving me smug look on results day for bio!!!
Thanks needmore for your detailed feedback. I think I really shouldn't be overly worried, I do trust the school they know what they are doing. He goes back to school this week, so going to sort something out regarding his subjects. He's just told me he's off to Durham open day on 26th!!

My son went to Durham Open Day but chose York in the end - beginning with Theoretical Physics and swapping to regular Physics as it allowed him more options to study nuclear physics. One of the most important things he heard at open days was at Durham - that it is more important to have a top mark in A level Maths to study physics at uni, than to have one in Physics. Without the skill at maths, the physics side can easily just fall apart. An older family member who had friends who studied physics at Oxford, said the same: that the friends who began to struggle with physics at uni, were the ones who were poorer at maths and particularly those who had never studied Further Maths. Fortunately my son was able to take an AS in FM in his Upper Sixth. He got all A's in his A levels which was more than enough for York, and he loves it there.

colyn what you saying is exactly how I feel, why he needs to do FM not only to get into the course or receive offers but most importantly being able to cope with a physics degree don't want him to drop out.
School thinks it's silly for him to drop biology, he only needs to get a middle B to get a A in A2. Doing 4 A levels means he has a extra chance to get his grades on a 3 grade offer. I understand what they saying but bio is a bit useless for physics if Im right in thinking. physics teacher says he shouldn't drop his EPQ he can get an A* on it he is on track. Why is it I get the feeling school is more bothered about themselves than the what's right for DS?? Now DS thinks he should take the risk not do FM and do his best with what he's doing?. Not listening to mum, typical!

Hi Judie - my DD and her friend are in a similar situation. Her friend is planning to study physics and maths, and my DD engineering. They eventually made the decision yesterday to drop biology - DD had a very high UMS and was reluctant initially. School have encouraged them to drop biology and concentrate on getting top grades in the other 3 subjects. They are both doing physics, maths and chemistry and self studying (with some help from a tutor) further maths AS. They do not need the further maths for most unis. Leeds told my DD that it was not essential and would not affect her getting an offer but would make the first year easier even if she doesn't actually sit the AS exams.
A lot of state comps do not offer further maths. A friend's DD has just graduated from a good RG uni with a 2.1 in maths (and got a related graduate job) and she did not do FM.

hells ds school not so helpful with dropping biology. They are digging their heels for him not to drop it. I've told ds if he's adamant he is keeping everything as it stands. There's a risk him not getting offers from the top uni. The problem is he won't be able to do FM aswell as the extra Alevel and EPQ without grades suffering. So I've suggested he self teaches FM and mentions it on his PS but not doing the exams. Better than nothing . School says they will give him a favourable reference towards his maths. I'm quite suprised when you mention being able to do maths degree without FM, it gives me some confidence this end .

Judie - my elder DD has just finished her A levels. Shen did AQA biology and A2 was a lot of work/memorising - the unit 5 paper includes an essay. She dropped physics to do 3 A2 levels and was very glad she was able to focus on just 3 subjects. She worked hard. You also have to contend with them turning 18 and going to lots of 18th parties! Their social life 'blossoms' in upper 6th!

Better warn ds biology is going to be busting some of his brain cells. They are in the process of filling out ucas but not entering the PS yet. The system crashed yesterday gives him chance to think wether he should declare his ums or just grades??. Any advice on that. He didn't get high A's in his modules apart from some of his maths. But all A's in subject modules apart from a B in one module in physics. That pulled him to overall B in physics So would it be better just to put grade? His remark for physics came back is unchanged . So really need to make his PS stand out.

DD1 didn't put any ums on her ucas form but her school reference included her c1 & c2 maths UMS which were very high. DD1 sent off her UCAS application around 20th Oct and had all her interviews & offers by Xmas. DD2 hasn't started her ucas stuff yet. There is no hurry if they are not applying for Oxbridge/medicine/Vet medicine.
DD1 knew her course would be interviews so wanted to get her form in relatively early. Her school does mock exams in January so wanted to try and do all interviews before then.